Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Oldermanish]

This is where one might be worried if Roglic was still in this race and had dropped him like Vingegaard did. What happened there was not supposed to happen but then the gap is so huge that he can afford to be significantly worse than Vingegaard and still win comfortably and I don't think he will be significantly worse. He did make a very good point for his "gain time as long as you can" attitude that he showed in the Alps though. Today would have been a lot more dramatic if he was only ,say 2 minutes in front.

Seriously "dropped him"? Pogacar still has a cycling computer and knows that the group behind could catch both of them. Why invest any more time when he could use the next group to help him catch Vingegaard and leave him out on the rotisserie to get overcooked. This is smart seasoned riding when you can use your closest threats to pursue another threat and tire them out.
He may have had stress from racing and the heat, for sure. He was cool enough not to waste energy he'd need later. Smart.

 

[Eeslliw]

I wouldn't trust how he performs now since he has such a big gap. He can play it really safe and doesn't need to go 100%. Today I am sure he could follow, but he would need to go in red, put 100%. So I think he stayed at safe 95%, thinking he has nice buffer in GC and to minimaze chances of blowing out in later stages. Just play it safe.

 

[Eeslliw]

Seriously "dropped him"? Pogacar still has a cycling computer and knows that the group behind could catch both of them. Why invest any more time when he could use the next group to help him catch Vingegaard and leave him out on the rotisserie to get overcooked. This is smart seasoned riding when you can use your closest threats to pursue another threat and tire them out.
He may have had stress from racing and the heat, for sure. He was cool enough not to waste energy he'd need later. Smart.

Indeed. What is scary about Pogacar is not only his numbers but he rides like a 5 time TDF winner in his 10+ season as a pro. His cycling IQ is very high. One moment I remember was how he played Yates in UAE Tour in the finish (on first MTF). And played Roglic in uphill sprints multiple times (Itzulia, TDF last year).

 

[Leinster]

For me, one of the most puzzling things about Pogacar is his physique. Compared to his compitors and champions of the past, he just doesn't look like someone who could motor on TT's and outclimb the field. If you were to show me pictures of the top 20 with their identities masked, I'd never pick him out as the best. It's not that he looks out of shape or something--just not exceptional.

Cycling has never been about physique, though, has it? Other than the cobbled classics, and to a lesser extent TT, the ability to spin the pedals has always been pretty evenly divided between long gangly types like Schleck or Froome and 5.5ft midgets like Quintana and Ewan, and plenty of middle guys in between.

 

[Leinster]

The competition isnt great, but it's not so common to have a GT were u actually have more than 2 or 3 of the GC riders with the highest potential in top shape/not crashing out at some point. I would say it's about were it is last year, just that we don't have Roglic in the Mix. Uran is a rider who has proven that he doesn't have it to win a GT. Mas doesn't look like a potential future winner either anymore. The same for Keldermann, Martin or Bilbao on a slightly lower level even. Lutsenko is a strong rider but he has never been a GT GC thread and even if he transform into a pure GC rider I doubt more than a top 5 in a weak GT will be possible. Gaudu might still have room to grow but right now he is someone for a top 5 max.

I would say below Pogacar and Roglic, Bernal, Carapaz and S. Yates might be the strongest GC riders right now. Pinot before his health issues was pretty good too, barring bad luck.
Below that we have a large pack of guys which are pretty evenly matched and again aren't far off a Carapaz or Yates either.

I’d add Almeida (depending where he lands next year), and tentatively an in-form Dumoulin (if we ever see it again).

 

[Blanco]

Seriously "dropped him"? Pogacar still has a cycling computer and knows that the group behind could catch both of them. Why invest any more time when he could use the next group to help him catch Vingegaard and leave him out on the rotisserie to get overcooked. This is smart seasoned riding when you can use your closest threats to pursue another threat and tire them out.
He may have had stress from racing and the heat, for sure. He was cool enough not to waste energy he'd need later. Smart.

Yes seriously dropped him! Or maybe you didn't watch?
No leader wants to show weakness, and he showed it today.
Smart riding would be letting Carapaz and Uran chase him, just following, and than catch him, with them or even better without them.

 

[geisterhome]

I’d add Almeida (depending where he lands next year), and tentatively an in-form Dumoulin (if we ever see it again).

Yea I was thinking Dumolin too, before last season I had he right up there with Roglic (before Pogacar won the Tour..). A bit similar to Pinot right now, but I doubt either will manage replicate what they have shown in the past.

 

[Lequack]

Back at the team bus

 

[Red Rick]

Back at the team bus

I'm pretty sure the UCI has rules against kicking teammates in the face?

 

[Leinster]

Yea I was thinking Dumolin too, before last season I had he right up there with Roglic (before Pogacar won the Tour..). A bit similar to Pinot right now, but I doubt either will manage replicate what they have shown in the past.

When next year's Tour starts, Thibaut will be just turned 32, Tom will be 31, and Roblic turns 32 later this year. They're all running out of time to bag the yellow, but they're all definitely still young enough to do it.

 

[brrrrrr]

hello

 

[geisterhome]

When next year's Tour starts, Thibaut will be just turned 32, Tom will be 31, and Roblic turns 32 later this year. They're all running out of time to bag the yellow, but they're all definitely still young enough to do it.

Yea age isnt a problem. Roglic came late to cycling, is super professional and highly motivated I feel he has a lot left and I could imagine him to challange for GT victories into his late thirties. Pinot has been around for a long time, he seems banged up physically and mentally, I doubt he will manage to get back to his very best. Dumolin also had physical issues, last year it didnt look like he is totally past them and even if the mental side remains a big questionmark.

 

[Oldermanish]

Yes seriously dropped him! Or maybe you didn't watch?
No leader wants to show weakness, and he showed it today.
Smart riding would be letting Carapaz and Uran chase him, just following, and than catch him, with them or even better without them.

Isn't that what happened? The effort to chase downhill against a group may net him nothing.

 

[davidsonduke]

Tadej is built like the good, young cyclist should. He's reasonably tall for a GC guy, got bigger looking feet and long legs. His leverage and pedal stroke show more power to weight possibilities than most of the other top GC guys except maybe Vingegard. He could lean out but this is the start of week 2 and the true comparison should be with himself at the Tour's end.

Maybe you're right. Seems like most transcent

Cycling has never been about physique, though, has it? Other than the cobbled classics, and to a lesser extent TT, the ability to spin the pedals has always been pretty evenly divided between long gangly types like Schleck or Froome and 5.5ft midgets like Quintana and Ewan, and plenty of middle guys in between.

I don't use "physique" to mean heavily muscled, but to say most of th ebest professional cyclists look the part: very small, more heavily muscled like MvDP or WvA, fireplugs like Cav, etc. Pogacar, to me, just doesn't stand out physically in any way. And for him to be so good, I find that surprising--that's all.

 

[Oldermanish]

Cycling has never been about physique, though, has it? Other than the cobbled classics, and to a lesser extent TT, the ability to spin the pedals has always been pretty evenly divided between long gangly types like Schleck or Froome and 5.5ft midgets like Quintana and Ewan, and plenty of middle guys in between.

You're right until you get into the serious TT guys. They almost always have alot of power first, spin second. Pogi climbs with power until he needs to spin as did Wout. There are the gifted smaller guys but they're less common than the taller dudes it seems.
Tadej will lean out at some point. As I guessed; he'll look different by the end of the Tour.

 

[Blanco]

Isn't that what happened? The effort to chase downhill against a group may net him nothing.

No it isn't. What happened was that he followed Vingegard, than being dropped by him. And that means that he will be attacked in the coming stages, cause he showed weakness. And that's something that GC guys didn't even dare to think of before today's stage.

 

[Leinster]

I don't use "physique" to mean heavily muscled, but to say most of th ebest professional cyclists look the part: very small, more heavily muscled like MvDP or WvA, fireplugs like Cav, etc. Pogacar, to me, just doesn't stand out physically in any way. And for him to be so good, I find that surprising--that's all.

I get you, and it's probably not something that can be expressed in cms or kgs anyway, but I'm just saying the only "physique" thing you tend to see in common across cycling is that GC riders/climbers tend to be skinnier and lighter than classics riders/ sprinters. Froome never looked like an athlete, but won a bunch of TT stages against guys who do. There are some cyclists who you know would be excellent at whatever sport they chose to turn to (Spartacus, Remco could've been a footballer, etc) and some who you look at and go "you're lucky you can pedal a bike, lad" (Hugh Carthy).

 

[Oldermanish]

Yes seriously dropped him! Or maybe you didn't watch?
No leader wants to show weakness, and he showed it today.
Smart riding would be letting Carapaz and Uran chase him, just following, and than catch him, with them or even better without them.

I watched and he did what I've done to no-threat guys that sat on all day. Let them go and team up with riders that are threatened and encourage them to work. You can take energy out of multiple opponents at the same time and not burn your matches. Do you honestly believe that if the Tour was in the balance that Tadej wouldn't have stayed with Vingegaard? He gave him a gap of, what...19 seconds at 1.5 km from the top? He checked how close the two were following before backing off. Carapaz and Uran, who was in position to get 2nd on GC by leaving O'Conner behind were very willing to drive pace all the way to the line; which they did. And caught Vingegaard who got nothing but, in your mind; a false sense that he might be stronger than Pogacar.
Oh...showing weakness is how you beat other teams on occasion, particularly when you want their young debutante' to overcommit. Unless you've been a winning GC guy and that was your biggest fear, then OK.

 

[davidsonduke]

I get you, and it's probably not something that can be expressed in cms or kgs anyway, but I'm just saying the only "physique" thing you tend to see in common across cycling is that GC riders/climbers tend to be skinnier and lighter than classics riders/ sprinters. Froome never looked like an athlete, but won a bunch of TT stages against guys who do. There are some cyclists who you know would be excellent at whatever sport they chose to turn to (Spartacus, Remco could've been a footballer, etc) and some who you look at and go "you're lucky you can pedal a bike, lad" (Hugh Carthy).

Froome is a good example of your point.

 

[bNator]

I watched and he did what I've done to no-threat guys that sat on all day. Let them go and team up with riders that are threatened and encourage them to work. You can take energy out of multiple opponents at the same time and not burn your matches. Do you honestly believe that if the Tour was in the balance that Tadej wouldn't have stayed with Vingegaard? He gave him a gap of, what...19 seconds at 1.5 km from the top? He checked how close the two were following before backing off. Carapaz and Uran, who was in position to get 2nd on GC by leaving O'Conner behind were very willing to drive pace all the way to the line; which they did. And caught Vingegaard who got nothing but, in your mind; a false sense that he might be stronger than Pogacar.
Oh...showing weakness is how you beat other teams on occasion, particularly when you want their young debutante' to overcommit. Unless you've been a winning GC guy and that was your biggest fear, then OK.

The consequence of that sense will be very real - Pogacar will now face more attacks than he would have - had he not show this supposed weakness. While 2 days ago it was unimaginable that he cracks, now Ineos and TJV will try something in the Pyrnees. Surely that's not in Pogacar's best interest.

And as some people already mentioned here, it would make sense to stay with Carapaz and Uran from the beginning and let them do the chasing. That would be a valid and good tactical decision and noone would say he did that because he couldn't follow. But that was not his intent because he reacted to Vingegaard's attack and he would have stayed with him if he had the legs.

And then finally, there's that acceleration at the end of the stage. Does one who is concerend with burning matches do that? No he doesn't. There's nothing to gain there in the end, sprinting is pointless. Yet he sprinted. Why? Because his ego was hurt and he had to show he's still the alpha.

That's the way of Pogacar. He doesn't let people go - he follows them if he can and humuliates them if possible. In his optimal scenario yesterday, he would first follow Vingegaard and then a couple of hundred meters later, he would attack himslef, dropping Vingegaard and catch the Trek boys before the summit.

 

[Blanco]

I watched and he did what I've done to no-threat guys that sat on all day. Let them go and team up with riders that are threatened and encourage them to work. You can take energy out of multiple opponents at the same time and not burn your matches. Do you honestly believe that if the Tour was in the balance that Tadej wouldn't have stayed with Vingegaard? He gave him a gap of, what...19 seconds at 1.5 km from the top? He checked how close the two were following before backing off. Carapaz and Uran, who was in position to get 2nd on GC by leaving O'Conner behind were very willing to drive pace all the way to the line; which they did. And caught Vingegaard who got nothing but, in your mind; a false sense that he might be stronger than Pogacar.
Oh...showing weakness is how you beat other teams on occasion, particularly when you want their young debutante' to overcommit. Unless you've been a winning GC guy and that was your biggest fear, then OK.

So he basically jump on Vingegaard's wheel to make him work, and then dropped to Uran/Carapaz to make them work too, if I understood correctly. Although they would do that same amount of work even without his presence. How smart indeed
And he even gave Vingegaard a false sense of being stronger, brilliant!

 

[Tinnekeisabella]

The consequence of that sense will be very real - Pogacar will now face more attacks than he would have - had he not show this supposed weakness. While 2 days ago it was unimaginable that he cracks, now Ineos and TJV will try something in the Pyrnees. Surely that's not in Pogacar's best interest.

And as some people already mentioned here, it would make sense to stay with Carapaz and Uran from the beginning and let them do the chasing. That would be a valid and good tactical decision and noone would say he did that because he couldn't follow. But that was not his intent because he reacted to Vingegaard's attack and he would have stayed with him if he had the legs.

And then finally, there's that acceleration at the end of the stage. Does one who is concerend with burning matches do that? No he doesn't. There's nothing to gain there in the end, sprinting is pointless. Yet he sprinted. Why? Because his ego was hurt and he had to show he's still the alpha.

That's the way of Pogacar. He doesn't let people go - he follows them if he can and humuliates them if possible. In his optimal scenario yesterday, he would first follow Vingegaard and then a couple of hundred meters later, he would attack himslef, dropping Vingegaard and catch the Trek boys before the summit.

Seriously, I am pretty sure Tadej is not out to humiliate anyone. He admitted he could not follow Vinegaard. Instead of panicking he decided to get back to Carapaz/Uran and limit the damage.

 

[Blanco]

Seriously, I am pretty sure Tadej is not out to humiliate anyone. He admitted he could not follow Vinegaard. Instead of panicking he decided to get back to Carapaz/Uran and limit the damage.

Yeah, that's what happened indeed, but someone here said it was smart racing from Pogacar. I say it wasn't, and that the real smart racing was staying behind Uran and Carapaz and not responding to Vingegaard at all.

 

[Tinnekeisabella]

Yeah, that's what happened indeed, but someone here said it was smart racing from Pogacar. I say it wasn't, and that the real smart racing was staying behind Uran and Carapaz and not responding to Vingegaard at all.

You are right about that. Not corresponding to him at all was wiser, but he did and then made the less wise but still good decision to not panic. He still proved his race smartness.

But I am a bit scared about the stage on Sunday to Andorra, 34 degrees…

But also a stage he is eager to win as he loves Andora because he won the Andora stage at the vuelta

 

[BlueRoads]

I agree with whoever said that Pogacar didn't crack, it was Vingegaard who exceeded all expectations. Pogacar was still stronger than the rest of them.