Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Cookster15]

Ya but u cant compare contadors giro tour double with others. He was pushed to his limits by astana at the giro where he was at risk of loosing it on the final mountain stage.

Contador also attacked everywhere with his final margin over Scarponi in Milan over 6 minutes. Plus 2011 Giro route was masochistic. There is way less climbing this year so it comes back to if Pogacar can restrain himself to allow chance of recovery by the TdF and still win.

Alberto Contador dominates the Giro d\'Italia 2011

This afternoon a final time trial in the streets of Milan announced the end of the Giro d\'Italia 2011. This 94th edition of the Tour of Italy, which celebrated the 150th anniversary of the reunification of its host country, was dominated by the Spaniard Alberto Contador (Team Saxo Bank-Sungard) who

www.velowire.com

 

[Slavique Nuke]

I am surprised that no one has said that Hungary is not Balkan.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It's just wishfull thinking. Pogacar tried everything to drop Vingegaard in the Tour 2022 after the stage of Granon and he couldn't.

He tried on Alpe d'huez, Mende, Azet, peyresourde, spandelles, and he never could drop him.

That's right, Pogi threw a kitchen sink at Vingo in 2022 and nothing worked. He dropped him 3 times last year though (even if gains were small).

 

[Lorzenz08]

I am part from the Balkans. My mom is from Croatia.

POGACAR NAJBOLJE NA SVIJETU !

 

[Froome]

That's right, Pogi threw a kitchen sink at Vingo in 2022 and nothing worked. He dropped him 3 times last year though (even if gains were small).

Explosiveness.

 

[Cookster15]

That's right, Pogi threw a kitchen sink at Vingo in 2022 and nothing worked. He dropped him 3 times last year though (even if gains were small).

Pogacar blew himself up on the Granon stage and never recovered. His attacks from the following day just meant he didn't recover from that Granon effort. He was also a one man show against the might of JV eg superman WVA on the Hautacam stage.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Explosiveness.

Cauterets absolutely not. Puy de Dome something between explosiveness and sustained effort, Grand Colombiere explosiveness indeed. Still, he couldn't do it in 2022 so his climbing efforts actually improved (except Loze OFC).

 

[velaso montador]

Why are people obsessed to judge people vs a hurt version of pogacar? Its really bizzar like why not judge from the time he wasnt hurt? (or rode vs roglic.) If anything its quite telling in itself.

If you only can debate the version when hes hurt to him i think you already know the answer yourself.

 

[velaso montador]

For Pogacar i think Mvdp is the only real obstacle in terms of his goals and his biggest rival so to speak in races he wanne win who can actually beat him.

He has actually showed he can beat Pogacar (flandern) tho i suspect Pogacar has gotten to a new level even now which is crazy to think about even.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Pogacar blew himself up on the Granon stage and never recovered. His attacks from the following day just meant he didn't recover from that Granon effort. He was also a one man show against the might of JV eg superman WVA on the Hautacam stage.

Not to mention if he was sick or not with COVID or something else that decimated UAE that year.

 

[pelotonIQ]

He has actually showed he can beat Pogacar (flandern) tho i suspect Pogacar has gotten to a new level even now which is crazy to think about even.

Pogacars new ''level'' could be explained that he is trying to peak for the Giro hence the good form early in the season.

The real test is the TdF.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pogacar blew himself up on the Granon stage and never recovered. His attacks from the following day just meant he didn't recover from that Granon effort. He was also a one man show against the might of JV eg superman WVA on the Hautacam stage.

Pogacar wasn't 100% at AdH, I agree. However his Mende attack was huge, VAM was going through the roof. Spendelles attacks were also brutal and on Hautacam he still outclassed the rest and had a decent climbing performance (depite losing time to Vingo).

 

[velaso montador]

Pogacars new ''level'' could be explained that he is trying to peak for the Giro hence the good form early in the season.

The real test is the TdF.

Its only a test if he can win the tour at 90% which he very well can, yes. The giro tour is for good reasons counted as impossible in modern times.

But I dont doubt people think if anyone can do it its Pog. It hard tho and even more so for us non pro cyclist to imagine i think cause it will go over X and O's. Body literally has to recover then build a new high and then top of that tackle two such big efforts in a very limited time without fatigueing its for good reasons its deemed impossible in modern cycling.

 

[Cookster15]

Pogacar wasn't 100% at AdH, I agree. However his Mende attack was huge, VAM was going through the roof. Spendelles attacks were also brutal and on Hautacam he still outclassed the rest and had a decent climbing performance (depite losing time to Vingo).

Pog will likely get spanked in his double attempt but I do feel there is room to be more optimistic about his prospects e.g. easier competition and less climbing at the Giro compared to when Contador attempted it. If he can win the Giro with minimal effort, then we get to see if a healthy and more measured Pog can make Vingo hurt in July.

 

[Froome]

Pogacar wasn't 100% at AdH, I agree. However his Mende attack was huge, VAM was going through the roof. Spendelles attacks were also brutal and on Hautacam he still outclassed the rest and had a decent climbing performance (depite losing time to Vingo).

Pogacar equalized the record from Pantani and Indurain from 1995, and they slowed down in the last 100 m.

Pogacar and Vingegaard equal the '95 record on Mende!

Cote de la Croix Neuve-Mende 2022:3,1 km@10,0%---9:03---average speed 20.55 km/h(Pogacar-Vingegaard) ---...

www.climbing-records.com

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pog will likely get spanked in his double attempt but I do feel there is room to be more optimistic about his prospects e.g. easier competition and less climbing at the Giro compared to when Contador attempted it. If he can win the Giro with minimal effort, then we get to see if a healthy and more measured Pog can make Vingo hurt in July.

I do believe 100% Pog focusing only on the Tour has a decent shot at beating Vingo (despite not being #1 favourite). But with the Giro it's a completely different game. I suggest we should fully focus on the Giro and enjoy it! Maybe it doesn't make sense to look past it now.

 

[velaso montador]

Pog will likely get spanked in his double attempt but I do feel there is room to be more optimistic about his prospects e.g. easier competition and less climbing at the Giro compared to when Contador attempted it. If he can win the Giro with minimal effort, then we get to see if a healthy and more measured Pog can make Vingo hurt in July.

I agree with you and i havent been close to watching a cyclist of pogacars level all the time ive watched cycling and many cycling greats from 2000 and onwards, noone close to him level of Pogacar tho.

But i agree with you too he will after a while i suspect fall apart simple cause the effort is to big weve seen it countless of times before when greats have tried their not only close so for that reason i too suspect and think that is the most likely logical outcome. It properly is just to hard to do.

 

[Cookster15]

I agree with you and i havent been close to watching a cyclist of pogacars level all the time ive watched cycling and many cycling greats from 2000 and onwards, noone close to him level of Pogacar tho.

But i agree with you too he will after a while i suspect fall apart simple cause the effort is to big weve seen it countless of times before when greats have tried their not only close so for that reason i too suspect and think that is the most likely logical outcome. It properly is just to hard to do.

I well remember Contador's attempt in 2011 and I am old enough to vividly recall Pantani's incredible feat in 1998. I think Pogacar stands a better chance than Contador did. But Vingegaard is stiffer competition than Evans and the Schecks. Who knows, maybe Vingo can have misfortune?

Contador started the 2011 TdF as overwhelming favorite to pull off the double. First week crashes seemed to hurt him in the Pyrenees but I think it was Giro fatigue that caught up with him when he cracked on the Galibier stage. But people forget, AC was still super strong as he set the race alight on every other stage in the Alpes and was 3rd fastest in the final stage 20 TT

 

[velaso montador]

I well remember Contador's attempt in 2011 and I am old enough to vividly recall Pantani's incredible feat in 1998. I think Pogacar stands a better chance than Contador did. But Vingegaard is stiffer competition than Evans and the Schecks. Who knows, maybe Vingo can have misfortune?

Contador started the 2011 TdF as overwhelming favorite to pull off the double. First week crashes seemed to hurt him in the Pyrenees but I think it was Giro fatigue that caught up with him when he cracked on the Galibier stage. But people forget, AC was still super strong as he set the race alight on every other stage in the Alpes and was 3rd fastest in the final stage 20 TT

You nailed it and i agree with everything you said from vinge beeing better competition than Evans to the last thing.

Its such a hard feat to do in modern cycling its for very good reasons deemed impossible. If anyone gonne do it its Pog but most likely will crack at some point its the most logical scenario. I truly respect the hearth to try it tho after what weve seen from other greats like Contador etc you mentioned, how much worse lvl they was at the tour after the giro compared to their normal lvl.

 

[RedheadDane]

haha i think youve might crossed the line there. The ones who knows knows haha!

Yeah, I know. Very controversial statement of me to make.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I well remember Contador's attempt in 2011 and I am old enough to vividly recall Pantani's incredible feat in 1998. I think Pogacar stands a better chance than Contador did. But Vingegaard is stiffer competition than Evans and the Schecks. Who knows, maybe Vingo can have misfortune?

Contador started the 2011 TdF as overwhelming favorite to pull off the double. First week crashes seemed to hurt him in the Pyrenees but I think it was Giro fatigue that caught up with him when he cracked on the Galibier stage. But people forget, AC was still super strong as he set the race alight on every other stage in the Alpes and was 3rd fastest in the final stage 20 TT

Giro-Tour double in any year is difficult. Skeletor having the highest Tour level since Armstrong makes it almost impossible (except the Dane's bad luck) for others.

 

[hayneplane]

I well remember Contador's attempt in 2011 and I am old enough to vividly recall Pantani's incredible feat in 1998. I think Pogacar stands a better chance than Contador did. But Vingegaard is stiffer competition than Evans and the Schecks. Who knows, maybe Vingo can have misfortune?

Contador started the 2011 TdF as overwhelming favorite to pull off the double. First week crashes seemed to hurt him in the Pyrenees but I think it was Giro fatigue that caught up with him when he cracked on the Galibier stage. But people forget, AC was still super strong as he set the race alight on every other stage in the Alpes and was 3rd fastest in the final stage 20 TT

2011 Contador was magnificent. He slayed everyone in the Giro as a pure exhibition of his talents because at that stage it was far from certain that he would even be allowed to take to the start line in the Tour.

Had he been able to plan his season around a double attempt with full certainty I am sure he would have measured his efforts more closely and held back.

The crash early that cost him a minute and a half put him on the back foot from the beginning and he never recovered from that.

Pog has the advantage of planning for the season as he wishes but the disadvantage that Vingegaard + Roglic/Remco is harder opposition than Evans and Andy Schleck

 

[Red Rick]

2011 Contador was magnificent. He slayed everyone in the Giro as a pure exhibition of his talents because at that stage it was far from certain that he would even be allowed to take to the start line in the Tour.

Had he been able to plan his season around a double attempt with full certainty I am sure he would have measured his efforts more closely and held back.

The crash early that cost him a minute and a half put him on the back foot from the beginning and he never recovered from that.

Pog has the advantage of planning for the season as he wishes but the disadvantage that Vingegaard + Roglic/Remco is harder opposition than Evans and Andy Schleck

The context that's not talked about enough about Contador's 2011 double is that all his Giro opponents went to the Vuelta and still hadn't recovered form by then.

 

[hayneplane]

The context that's not talked about enough about Contador's 2011 double is that all his Giro opponents went to the Vuelta and still hadn't recovered form by then.

Yeah that was very striking that Nibali and Scarponi etc were still destroyed from the exertions of trying to hold onto Contador.

 

[Cookster15]

The context that's not talked about enough about Contador's 2011 double is that all his Giro opponents went to the Vuelta and still hadn't recovered form by then.

Good point! The thing I wonder is how hard the riders race is often a bigger factor than the parcours? The 2011 Giro had far more climbing than this years edition, but Contador also set that race alight attacking on almost every mountain. So now I wonder if Pogacar can curtail his natural desire to attack everywhere to conserve energy. Likely this won't make enough difference in July, assuming he does win the Giro. But I hope Pog can whet our appetite before inevitably fading in the 3rd week.It will be disappointing if he cracks early.