Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Peyroteo94]

I doubt that Jonas will be on 2024 Pog level.

I believe he will but Pogacar will be better too so Vingegaard needs to improve significantly his numbers.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Suspicions about Adam are confirmed. Today in problems again.
If he doesn't recover his shape for the Tour, and neither does Sivakov, that will be a problem for Pogacar in the mountains.

And his brother Simon is stronger in this Giro. Good news for Vingegaard.

What recovery? Don't you see the difference between recovery and ceilling? He will recover for sure however his level dropped significantly compared to 2 years ago.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Shots fired !


Vingegaard 2 days ago :

" I think I'm hungrier than ever. "

“My values already look promising. It seems that I have taken another small step and that I am better than last year and the year before. “

"Of course I looked at how he performed in the spring. Besides, his spring doesn't mean he'll be that dominant in the Tour."

Jonas Vingegaard baalt dat hij Van Aerts ritzege niet zag door harde Tour-voorbereiding: "Waarden zijn veelbelovend" | sporza

Hoe zou het nog zijn met Jonas Vingegaard? Wel, in een persmoment vertelde de grote uitdager van Tadej Pogacar voor de Tour de France hoe zijn trainingsarbeid verloopt. De Deen werkt in het zuiden van Spanje hard aan zijn topvorm. "Het lijkt erop dat ik beter ben dan vorig jaar én het jaar...

sporza.be

 

[Peyroteo94]

Shots fired !


Vingegaard 2 days ago :

" I think I'm hungrier than ever. "

“My values already look promising. It seems that I have taken another small step and that I am better than last year and the year before. “

"Of course I looked at how he performed in the spring. Besides, his spring doesn't mean he'll be that dominant in the Tour."

Jonas Vingegaard baalt dat hij Van Aerts ritzege niet zag door harde Tour-voorbereiding: "Waarden zijn veelbelovend" | sporza

Hoe zou het nog zijn met Jonas Vingegaard? Wel, in een persmoment vertelde de grote uitdager van Tadej Pogacar voor de Tour de France hoe zijn trainingsarbeid verloopt. De Deen werkt in het zuiden van Spanje hard aan zijn topvorm. "Het lijkt erop dat ik beter ben dan vorig jaar én het jaar...

sporza.be

What do you want him to say? This is an obvious answer. He can't say he will not challenge Pogacar

 

[Peyroteo94]

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View: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJ4hYJWSfsX/?igsh=cWVpenM2aGR0bjAz

 

[Mayomaniac]

How many coffees did they have together? More than Juan!

 

[Peyroteo94]

How many coffees did they have together? More than Juan!

He doesn't like Ayuso but he is very polite to all.

 

[Mayomaniac]

He doesn't like Ayuso but he is very polite to all.

I mean, who on the team besides Matxim actually likes Ayuso?

 

[Peyroteo94]

I mean, who on the team besides Matxim actually likes Ayuso?

Even us. I don't find many Ayuso fans here.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I mean, who on the team besides Matxim actually likes Ayuso?

 

[Mayomaniac]

Even us. I don't find many Ayuso fans here.

I actually liked him in the u23 ranks and for some time during his first year as a pro, but his attitude rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Netserk]

Agree. I too recall hearing similar from Visma before the 2024 tour. Then of course when Vingegaard was losing time every day in the 3rd week Visma started referring to his April crash.

Do you have an example of that from before the race where his April crash wasn't mentioned? Your recollection does not match mine of what was said by the team.

 

[yaf2]

Is he a sociopath or what? Its all strange he does. He was also doing flying papers the other day in an interview with del toro i mean wth🤔

 

[Froome]

I mean, who on the team besides Matxim actually likes Ayuso?

Pogacar. They are friends. They were training together in monaco.

 

[Cookster15]

Do you have an example of that from before the race where his April crash wasn't mentioned? Your recollection does not match mine of what was said by the team.

Yes. There were a few stories of Visma's claims for Vingegaard's level for the 2024 Tour circulating back then. Here is an example dated 13 May 2024 which matches my recollection:

Jonas Vingegaard "won't go to Tour de France unless he is 100 per cent"

Jonas Vingegaard is training outside again after his crash last month, but his participation in this year's Tour France is far from certain

www.stickybottle.com

his team has said he would only line up for the French Grand Tour if he was at his best

Then on his actual watts on PdB:

"It is very accurate" - Jonas Vingegaard confirms that unbelievable W/Kg on Plateau de Beille are true

Stage 15 of the Tour de France had almost 5000 meters of climbing and was raced at a very high pace from start to finish. Hence, after climbing Plateau de Beille in less than 40 minutes, a whole 3:44...

cyclinguptodate.com

It was estimated that Pogacar pushed 6.98W/Kg for the whole climb, unseen numbers in the world of cycling.
Pogacar's time up the climb itself was aided by the monstrous work of Matteo Jorgenson and Jonas Vingegaard. The latter also put in his career-best performance up the ascent, said to have averaged 6.85W/Kg for over 40 minutes.

6.85W/Kg for over 40 minutes for Vingegaard. Career best and over 2 minutes faster than Pantani's record. Not bad after what he endured and recovered from after his April crash at Tour of Basque.

So Vingegaard's peak level was exactly as Visma were claiming. Except Pogacar was better. Then due to lack of base-load training the third week took its toll on his usual huge recovery. Still a great performance from Jonas, especially his Nice TT after three weeks of trying to hang with Pogacar.

 

[Netserk]

Yes. There were a few stories of Visma's claims for Vingegaard's level for the 2024 Tour circulating back then. Here is an example dated 13 May 2024 which matches my recollection:

I don't think that's an example of that. There are two quotes in the article about Vingegaard:

“After such a fall we have to be careful and see how his recovery progresses day by day. We will have to wait a little longer to get a better idea of where he stands now,” Visma-Lease a Bike chief, Richard Plugge, told Relevo
“There are two scenarios: one where Jonas goes to the Tour and another where he doesn’t. It all depends on his recovery. But if he is not 100 per cent, we will not go to the Tour to defend his title.

Neither of them are big talk about best ever shape nor saying that he was putting out his best numbers ever before the 2024 Tour.

all the big talk from visma about jonas' fabled "best ever" shape is nothing but talk. almeida roasted him easily in algarve on that climb. i recall similar rhetoric in 2024 "i'm putting out my best numbers ever"

Agree. I too recall hearing similar from Visma before the 2024 tour. Then of course when Vingegaard was losing time every day in the 3rd week Visma started referring to his April crash.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Yes. There were a few stories of Visma's claims for Vingegaard's level for the 2024 Tour circulating back then. Here is an example dated 13 May 2024 which matches my recollection:

Jonas Vingegaard "won't go to Tour de France unless he is 100 per cent"

Jonas Vingegaard is training outside again after his crash last month, but his participation in this year's Tour France is far from certain

www.stickybottle.com

Then on his actual watts on PdB:

"It is very accurate" - Jonas Vingegaard confirms that unbelievable W/Kg on Plateau de Beille are true

Stage 15 of the Tour de France had almost 5000 meters of climbing and was raced at a very high pace from start to finish. Hence, after climbing Plateau de Beille in less than 40 minutes, a whole 3:44...

cyclinguptodate.com

6.85W/Kg for over 40 minutes for Vingegaard. Career best and over 2 minutes faster than Pantani's record. Not bad after what he endured and recovered from after his April crash at Tour of Basque.

So Vingegaard's peak level was exactly as Visma were claiming. Except Pogacar was better. Then due to lack of base-load training the third week took its toll on his usual huge recovery. Still a great performance from Jonas, especially his Nice TT after three weeks of trying to hang with Pogacar.

I also think Vingegaard was close to his best in the Tour and his suboptimal preparation was responsible for his drop in performance in week 3.

 

[Peyroteo94]

But Vingegaard and Pogacar have been improving year after year so it is very reasonable to say Pogacar will need to improve his numbers because Vingegaard will improve. History shows that.

 

[YavorD]

But Vingegaard and Pogacar have been improving year after year so it is very reasonable to say Pogacar will need to improve his numbers because Vingegaard will improve. History shows that.

At some point, sponer rather than later, both will stop improving.

 

[assisting]

But Vingegaard and Pogacar have been improving year after year so it is very reasonable to say Pogacar will need to improve his numbers because Vingegaard will improve.

There should be a top ceiling for either of them. If both improve significantly year after year even after 30 with everything going on (crashes, intense racing all year round, media pressure), I would find that hard to explain.

 

[Peyroteo94]

At some point, sponer rather than later, both will stop improving.

I agree but don't forget Vingegaard is 28 and Pogacar just 26. It's hard to not see them improving until their 30s.

 

[Fos]

Apparently, Pogi will return in a few days to continue his training camp in Sierra Nevada, before the Dauphine. We'll find out soon...

 

[Cookster15]

But Vingegaard and Pogacar have been improving year after year so it is very reasonable to say Pogacar will need to improve his numbers because Vingegaard will improve. History shows that.

It was 26 years between Pantani's Giro-Tour double in 1998 and Pogacar's next achievement of that feat last year. The reason why it was such a long time is its very difficult to peak twice for a grand tour so close in time. It was too much for Contador and Froome.

It is claimed that Pogacar rode himself into form at the Giro (he had been winning since SB in March). But in the Giro itself he was already at a massive level as proven on the queen stage:

Pogačar Stomps the Competition in Livigno's Thin Air | Giro d'Italia Stage 15 2024 - Lanterne Rouge

Tadej Pogačar continued his domination in the 2024 Giro d'Italia with an impressive victory on the queen stage, dropping easily all of his GC rivals on Foscagno and later surpassing the strongest breakaway rider, Nairo Quintana, on the final climb.

lanternerouge.com

it is likely a Top 3 performance of his career. Pogačar after the attack did 6.88 ᵉW/Kg for 13:07 min, which is an even more impressive performance at high altitude than the whole climb.

Pogacar isn't riding the Giro this year. That is enough to say why he will be at a higher level than his already stratospheric level in 2024. So, I doubt that Pogacar can't stay well ahead of a better Vingegaard.

 

[Peyroteo94]

There should be a top ceiling for either of them. If both improve significantly year after year even after 30 with everything going on (crashes, intense racing all year round, media pressure), I would find that hard to explain.

I believe both will stop improving in their early 30s (31-32). The problem is they both are (at least) 2 steps above everyone in GTs. They literally can gain 1 and half minutes to everybody else in a climb over 25 minutes.

 

[Peyroteo94]

It was 26 years between Pantani's Giro-Tour double in 1998 and Pogacar's next achievement of that feat last year. The reason why it was such a long time is its very difficult to peak twice for a grand tour so close in time. It was too much for Contador and Froome.

It is claimed that Pogacar rode himself into form at the Giro (he had been winning since SB in March). But in the Giro itself he was already at a massive level as proven on the queen stage:

Pogačar Stomps the Competition in Livigno's Thin Air | Giro d'Italia Stage 15 2024 - Lanterne Rouge

Tadej Pogačar continued his domination in the 2024 Giro d'Italia with an impressive victory on the queen stage, dropping easily all of his GC rivals on Foscagno and later surpassing the strongest breakaway rider, Nairo Quintana, on the final climb.

lanternerouge.com

Pogacar isn't riding the Giro this year. That is enough to say why he will be at a higher level than his already stratospheric level in 2024. So, I doubt that Pogacar can't stay well ahead of a better Vingegaard.

I don't think Pogacar was at his best in the Giro. 6,88 w/kg is impressive at altitude but doing for just 13 minutes is not that otherworldy (for Pogacar standards). Vingegaard did 6.85 w/kg for almost 41 minutes in PdB (over 7 w/kg if we adjust to sea level).

Greatest Climbing Performances Of All-Time on Plateau de Beille | Tour de France 2024 Stage 15 - Lanterne Rouge

Tadej Pogačar and Jonas Vingegaard both did the best and second-best climbing performance of all time on the Plateau de Beille climb, making this the greatest climbing stage of all time.

lanternerouge.com