Tchmil Implies Menchov was Doping?

Jun 16, 2010
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CyclingNew had an interview with Denis Menchov where he accused Team Katusha of blowing him off for the 2011 season:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/menchov-pleased-he-chose-geox-tmc-over-katusha

He was particularly displeased with team manager's Andrei Tchmil's attitude. Then today CyclingNews published a letter from Tchmil firing back at Menchov:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tchmil-responds-to-menchovs-criticism

Among other things, Tchmil said:

“There is a lot of discipline in our team for sure, I won’t deny it. We demand to know what is going on in the team. That’s why we agreed to work with the Mapei Centre and why we included in all of our riders’ contracts a penalty clause which demands the payment of five times their salary if they’re find guilty of using doping substances. Lots of agents don’t like this policy, but whoever wants to be part of this team must accept it and all riders are considered equal: Russians, Italians, Spanish, French and Spanish.”

To me that sounds a lot like Tchmil suspected Menchov was doping and wanted to keep closer tabs on him to prevent future transgressions. If this interpretation is true, then I say hats off to Tchmil, one of the few DS's to try to control doping on his team. (And I would also include Jonathan Vaughters among that very, very small group.)

Does this also put Steegman's refusal to sign Katusha's contract in a different light?
 
Jul 3, 2010
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ricara said:
CyclingNew had an interview with Denis Menchov where he accused Team Katusha of blowing him off for the 2011 season:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/menchov-pleased-he-chose-geox-tmc-over-katusha

He was particularly displeased with team manager's Andrei Tchmil's attitude. Then today CyclingNews published a letter from Tchmil firing back at Menchov:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tchmil-responds-to-menchovs-criticism

Among other things, Tchmil said:

“There is a lot of discipline in our team for sure, I won’t deny it. We demand to know what is going on in the team. That’s why we agreed to work with the Mapei Centre and why we included in all of our riders’ contracts a penalty clause which demands the payment of five times their salary if they’re find guilty of using doping substances. Lots of agents don’t like this policy, but whoever wants to be part of this team must accept it and all riders are considered equal: Russians, Italians, Spanish, French and Spanish.”

To me that sounds a lot like Tchmil suspected Menchov was doping and wanted to keep closer tabs on him to prevent future transgressions. If this interpretation is true, then I say hats off to Tchmil, one of the few DS's to try to control doping on his team. (And I would also include Jonathan Vaughters among that very, very small group.)

Does this also put Steegman's refusal to sign Katusha's contract in a different light?
Who would sign a contract like that? I'd have to be in a homeless shelter before i'd sign something like that if there was any chance it could be enforced. 5 times?
 
Sep 25, 2009
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bigloco said:
Who would sign a contract like that? I'd have to be in a homeless shelter before i'd sign something like that if there was any chance it could be enforced. 5 times?
you're right. a contract clause like that is unenforceable as the vivo vs uci cas ruling abundantly showed. yet, 30+ riders signed it...there is more to tchmil grandstanding: he has to deflect the criticism of not being able to hire the best native gt rider. that is, before gasrom money handlers reduced his budget. the fact is, schmill's visit to madrid was his first ever face-to-face meeting with the rider. they never met before and schmill never made an effort to reach him out. there is more to this story...
 
Jun 16, 2009
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ricara said:
CyclingNew had an interview with Denis Menchov where he accused Team Katusha of blowing him off for the 2011 season:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/menchov-pleased-he-chose-geox-tmc-over-katusha

He was particularly displeased with team manager's Andrei Tchmil's attitude. Then today CyclingNews published a letter from Tchmil firing back at Menchov:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tchmil-responds-to-menchovs-criticism

Among other things, Tchmil said:

“There is a lot of discipline in our team for sure, I won’t deny it. We demand to know what is going on in the team. That’s why we agreed to work with the Mapei Centre and why we included in all of our riders’ contracts a penalty clause which demands the payment of five times their salary if they’re find guilty of using doping substances. Lots of agents don’t like this policy, but whoever wants to be part of this team must accept it and all riders are considered equal: Russians, Italians, Spanish, French and Spanish.”

To me that sounds a lot like Tchmil suspected Menchov was doping and wanted to keep closer tabs on him to prevent future transgressions. If this interpretation is true, then I say hats off to Tchmil, one of the few DS's to try to control doping on his team. (And I would also include Jonathan Vaughters among that very, very small group.)

Does this also put Steegman's refusal to sign Katusha's contract in a different light?
That last question also applies for Mcewen as well as I don't think he liked the penalty clause.

Interesting quotes by Tchmil.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Well, the clause was heavily debated when it was first made public. Not much has changed since then.

Personally, if I was a good enough rider to get onto a PT team then I probably wouldn't sign that contract - I'd ride for somebody else (mind you, I think I would ride for somebody else anyway). The fact is that whilst I know that I would never dope - I do NOT know that I wouldn't fail a test for whatever reason, up to and including the possibility of foul play.

Who hear doesn't think that a cash strapped team or a team that wants to get rid of a rider wouldn't consider putting something in that rider's food or bidons so that they fail a test? They get rid of the rider AND they get all the money.

Remember "crashgate" in F1? That shows how far people are willing to go.
 
May 26, 2010
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Martin318is said:
Well, the clause was heavily debated when it was first made public. Not much has changed since then.

Personally, if I was a good enough rider to get onto a PT team then I probably wouldn't sign that contract - I'd ride for somebody else (mind you, I think I would ride for somebody else anyway). The fact is that whilst I know that I would never dope - I do NOT know that I wouldn't fail a test for whatever reason, up to and including the possibility of foul play.

Who hear doesn't think that a cash strapped team or a team that wants to get rid of a rider wouldn't consider putting something in that rider's food or bidons so that they fail a test? They get rid of the rider AND they get all the money.

Remember "crashgate" in F1? That shows how far people are willing to go.
i agree and made the same argument in the Steegmans thread. You would need to be desperate or stupid to sign such a contract.
 
ricara said:
...
Among other things, Tchmil said:

“.... That’s why we agreed to work with the Mapei Centre and why we included in all of our riders’ contracts a penalty clause which demands the payment of five times their salary if they’re find guilty of using doping substances. Lots of agents don’t like this policy, but whoever wants to be part of this team must accept it and all riders are considered equal: Russians, Italians, Spanish, French and Spanish.”

...
Anyone know if there is an asterisk or a rider on that clause?

You know, the one that says if you use the team's authorized doping providers this clause does not apply? :rolleyes:

Dave.
 
I have a hard time believing Tchmil didn't sign Menchov because he was doping - that would imply Katusha is clean, which I have trouble believing. If anything that could mean they didn't want Menchov to do his own thing independently from team control.

And yes, that clause is abusive whether you dope or not.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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In other shocking news, there is growing speculation that Liberace was gay!
 
python said:
you're right. a contract clause like that is unenforceable as the vivo vs uci cas ruling abundantly showed.
My estimation is riders that did sign it are relying on the clause never going into effect. Add to that what the UCI might/might not do with the test results and a rider could be comfortable signing the document.

Testing is definitely a double-edged sword. False negative/False positive rates are not common knowledge for the tests. We know there are a good number of false negatives based on rider confessions.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Martin318is said:
Who hear doesn't think that a cash strapped team or a team that wants to get rid of a rider wouldn't consider putting something in that rider's food or bidons so that they fail a test? They get rid of the rider AND they get all the money.
First, the CAS has already shown that such contracts are not enforceable, and second, I seriously doubt these contracts were created to be "enforced". The fact that we're talking about them now means that they were created for the PR value they brought to that team. They want people to think they're clean, and that is the only reason the contract was created.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
First, the CAS has already shown that such contracts are not enforceable, and second, I seriously doubt these contracts were created to be "enforced". The fact that we're talking about them now means that they were created for the PR value they brought to that team. They want people to think they're clean, and that is the only reason the contract was created.
Not the only team bringing this show to the circus, is it?
 
Well, it sounded from the interview that the problems was with Menchovs agents so I'm guessing that they probably adviced Menchov or told Tchmil directly that they would refuse to sign any contract with that clause in it.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Black-Balled said:
Please don't drag the circus down into this.
I won't, but you know I could easily do so. Lots of teams do some interesting PR to get the clueless press off their backs, and we'll leave it at that.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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ingsve said:
Well, it sounded from the interview that the problems was with Menchovs agents so I'm guessing that they probably adviced Menchov or told Tchmil directly that they would refuse to sign any contract with that clause in it.
I think Menchov's agent is blind (and paralyzed from the waist down). He couldn't see Tchmil winking at him, and those under-the-table kicks went unrecognized.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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I have read the OP and would not agree that it implies he believes Menchov is doping. But that is not the only smoke regarding Menchov. According to the tried and true assumption method (results based suspicion) Menchov is a Ped abusing cyclist. :eek:
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Glenn_Wilson said:
I have read the OP and would not agree that it implies he believes Menchov is doping. But that is not the only smoke regarding Menchov. According to the tried and true assumption method (results based suspicion) Menchov is a Ped abusing cyclist. :eek:
Wasn't Menchov the guy who got dropped by Cancellara during the supposed "Electric Motor" controversy?

 
python said:
you're right. a contract clause like that is unenforceable as the vivo vs uci cas ruling abundantly showed. yet, 30+ riders signed it...there is more to tchmil grandstanding: he has to deflect the criticism of not being able to hire the best native gt rider. that is, before gasrom money handlers reduced his budget. the fact is, schmill's visit to madrid was his first ever face-to-face meeting with the rider. they never met before and schmill never made an effort to reach him out. there is more to this story...
Well said.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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nvpacchi said:
Does anyone know if Antonio Colom ever paid his penalty?
The clause was introduced mid-season into a new contract in reaction to Colom and Pfannberger testing positive.

Riders were expected to rip up their existing contract or get ignored. Some did and are still there, some didn't and got ignored (Steegmans), some didn't and didn't get ignored (McEwen I think) and some initially signed it but then (rightly, IMO) claimed breach of contract and moved teams (Ben Swift).
 
Jun 16, 2010
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Help me put one and one together...

Many people have said you would have to be an idiot to sign the contract.

McEwen is on the team.

One poster suggested that McEwen didn't have to sign the contract.

So that leaves two possiblities:

a) McEwen is an idiot because he signed the contract.

b) McEwen didn't have to sign the contract and all of Tchmil's talk about Menchov is just a pile of horse poop.
 
ricara said:
Many people have said you would have to be an idiot to sign the contract.

McEwen is on the team.

One poster suggested that McEwen didn't have to sign the contract.

So that leaves two possiblities:

a) McEwen is an idiot because he signed the contract.

b) McEwen didn't have to sign the contract and all of Tchmil's talk about Menchov is just a pile of horse poop.
You don't have to be an idiot to sign, but it's an abuse. In other fields, many workers have to agree to outrageous conditions just to get the job, and this isn't different.
 

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