Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[lllludo]

I suppose nobody is above suspicion...

Exactly ! Nobody having achieved outstanding performances in 1993-94 shall be above suspicion.
In "In search of Robert Millar", Millar gives a different explanation : Obree, whose mindset was not adapted to work in a pro team structure, clashed very early with Valcke and the staff who considered he was a maverick because of repeatedly missed all team meetings. Valcke fired him.
But anyway Obree, like Boardman, said he never doped. Too bad for him he never got to work with Sir David Brailsford, who could have removed the chimp on his shoulder to help him win a few Tours de France.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Wait, to be a fully fledged "detractor" one needs to know exactly how Froome is doping better than the rest?

No - and just to be clear I think Froome dopes.

But, I can take apart the grupetto to GT winner because a lot of it is hyperbole.
If its your opinion that he was bad, and is now so good, what is he doing different to others?

 

[The Hitch]

Thanks.
I found an article that goes through the key points there and aligns with what you remember at the time.


So it was about Spain not the podium of the Vuelta.

The vuelta podium was definately discussed with Walsh saying it was dirty. Both me and peloton remember it that way.

 

[deeno1975]

Chris Carmichael was doping Armstrong as a developing rider in the 90's with a lawsuit about it about 2001. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dope-and-glory-10-04-2001/ An honest question, did you not see this story at the time? I mean that, it's an honest question

Afraid not, my knowledge was based on what i saw on the tv and what i read in cycling magazine's, neither of which were going to out the super hero. However, my cycling buddies had grave doubts, similar to what they have now about what they see these days.

 

[DirtyWorks]

They did - and by in large they are correct on those issues (not sure of Ax3).

What does that show? Nothing.
Remember the more people who think the Fromme came from nowhere, or is doing something outrageous, then the easier it should be to show what it is that Sky (or Fromme) are doing differently are better in a doping context then other teams.
Thats when the detractors go quiet.

To the bolded, this is not a weakness in the argument that Froome and others are doping. How would critics know what Sky or Froome are doing? We don't!

What we have are Not Normal performances. Many of them and for months at a time at historically low race weights. We know the UCI has assisted teams to dominate before, why not again? We know the management structure is the same as USA Cycling and USPS. We know most of Brailsford/sky talk is largely false PR.

What we observe quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck, is about the same size as a duck and has feet like a duck. Is it a duck?

 

[Hugh Januss]

No - and just to be clear I think Froome dopes.

But, I can take apart the grupetto to GT winner because a lot of it is hyperbole.
If its your opinion that he was bad, and is now so good, what is he doing different to others?

Well there are 2 options.
1. Marginal gains.
2. Brand new doping program.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

To the bolded, this is not a weakness in the argument that Froome and others are doping. How would critics know what Sky or Froome are doing? We don't!

What we have are Not Normal performances. Many of them and for months at a time at historically low race weights. We know the UCI has assisted teams to dominate before, why not again? We know the management structure is the same as USA Cycling and USPS. We know most of Brailsford/sky talk is largely false PR.

What we observe quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck, is about the same size as a duck and has feet like a duck. Is it a duck?

It is the weakness in the argument.
The fact that you have brought up the UCI and USA cycling shows that.
Russia is bigger than the UK - why not give the preferential treatment to them?

Just so I am clear - as I probably didn't address it correctly - I think Froome is doping because of what he does to his peers (and high numbers).
Thats why it quacks. Not the grupetto to GT winner stuff.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well there are 2 options.
1. Marginal gains.
2. Brand new doping program.

Which would be the obvious conclusion.

So, is he doing it on his own? Not sharing? Why is he the main beneficiary?
The 'newer', or bigger better should mean a more sophisticated program, that means a certain level of expertise or super deceit.

It does not really stack up - unless you want the Murdoch bought Weisels doping laser beam machine theory.
As I say, I think he is reasonably talented and doing 'ordinary' doping. (BBs & EPO)

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Just so I am clear - as I probably didn't address it correctly - I think Froome is doping because of what he does to his peers (and high numbers).
Thats why it quacks. Not the grupetto to GT winner stuff.

This argument has the distinct merit of like for like comparisons.

With regard to climbing, there's a strong argument that Quintana was at least his equal in 2013. On both of Froome's MTF wins, Quintana was sent on a suicide mission in support of Valverde(?) On Ventoux he was solo for 12k, 5k more than Froome, yet only lost 30s.

 

[peloton]

The vuelta podium was definately discussed with Walsh saying it was dirty. Both me and peloton remember it that way.

It certainly was. He said how lax attitude Spain had about doping and that the podium was dirty/doping because they climbed so fast.

Wish the interview had been uploaded somewhere

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This argument has the distinct merit of like for like comparisons.

With regard to climbing, there's a strong argument that Quintana was at least his equal in 2013. On both of Froome's MTF wins, Quintana was sent on a suicide mission in support of Valverde(?) On Ventoux he was solo for 12k, 5k more than Froome, yet only lost 30s.

Sure - with regard to climbing.
Quintana is a fabulous climber, small, light and from Colombia. He is also a poor TTer, because he is small, light and from Colombia.

And you ignored the other point I made, about Froomes numbers.

 

[deeno1975]

Not the grupetto to GT winner stuff.

If he won or placed high in Le Tour or other races then I would agree with you. But from grupetto to the greatest cyclist of all time with utter destruction in all races of all around him... it not only quacks but it QUACKS

 

[Hugh Januss]

Which would be the obvious conclusion.

So, is he doing it on his own? Not sharing? Why is he the main beneficiary?
The 'newer', or bigger better should mean a more sophisticated program, that means a certain level of expertise or super deceit.

It does not really stack up - unless you want the Murdoch bought Weisels doping laser beam machine theory.
As I say, I think he is reasonably talented and doing 'ordinary' doping. (BBs & EPO)

I think it is something more than EPO and BB's. Something currently unknown to anti-doping authorities, or at least with no known test. Something that allows the subject to drop to extreme low body fat without a loss of muscle power and without getting sick. Naturally, that is without drugs, the kind of fitness peak that comes with 3 percent body fat is just about impossible to maintain for long periods of time, Froome and Horner seem to do it all season now.
Doping Doctors are back on top vs. doping testers.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Exactly ! Nobody having achieved outstanding performances in 1993-94 shall be above suspicion.
In "In search of Robert Millar", Millar gives a different explanation : Obree, whose mindset was not adapted to work in a pro team structure, clashed very early with Valcke and the staff who considered he was a maverick because of repeatedly missed all team meetings. Valcke fired him.
But anyway Obree, like Boardman, said he never doped. Too bad for him he never got to work with Sir David Brailsford, who could have removed the chimp on his shoulder to help him win a few Tours de France.

Quality.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If he won or placed high in Le Tour or other races then I would agree with you. But from grupetto to the greatest cyclist of all time with utter destruction in all races of all around him... it not only quacks but it QUACKS

Then he was quacking as soon as he arrived in Europe.

He won a stage and was 2nd in another at the Giro delle Regioni. That's a good race to spot future talent and he was pretty much best climber.

I think it is something more than EPO and BB's. Something currently unknown to anti-doping authorities, or at least with no known test. Something that allows the subject to drop to extreme low body fat without a loss of muscle power and without getting sick. Naturally, that is without drugs, the kind of fitness peak that comes with 3 percent body fat is just about impossible to maintain for long periods of time, Froome and Horner seem to do it all season now.
Doping Doctors are back on top vs. doping testers.

That sounds reasonable. And I totally agree with the highlighted, I cannot understand how you can be that skinny and not fall apart after a few days.

 

[red_flanders]

Then he was quacking as soon as he arrived in Europe.

He won a stage and was 2nd in another at the Giro delle Regioni. That's a good race to spot future talent and he was pretty much best climber.

He labored in almost near obscurity for years, and it doesn't appear he was going to get his contract renewed. Then suddenly he's a world beater, probably the greatest talent since Merckx if you are to believe that he's doing it clean.

It's not like he was at the back of the grupetto as some posts might suggest (or be wrongly interpreted as saying), but let's not act like anyone saw real promise for him to become a GT champion, or even near what he's become. He's now the utterly dominant "talent" of his generation.

The kind of talent he's showing now does not just appear, regardless of initial promise at minor races. It is known from day 1. We're talking Hinault, Lemond, Merckx kind of talent.

The list of guys who have done relatively well, showing some promise at an early stage and fallen into obscurity is a very long list indeed. The list of guys who show the kind of talent he's showing is very short, and they all were well known before they even went pro.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Sure - with regard to climbing.
Quintana is a fabulous climber, small, light and from Colombia. He is also a poor TTer, because he is small, light and from Colombia.

And you ignored the other point I made, about Froomes numbers.

Looked better in San Luis, but regardless he'll always be at a disadvantage to Froome on the flat. But he's got a few years to improve his climbing.

Hard to know what to believe about numbers. Which is not intended to disparage anyone producing estimates or using models. I'm just not aware that there's a settled consensus on where human limits are or 'normal' 3rd-week blood profiles etc

Also there's often as much debate about the credibility of the source, as the meaning of the numbers and I lack the expertise, or tribal gland, to pick a winner.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He labored in almost near obscurity for years, and it doesn't appear he was going to get his contract renewed. Then suddenly he's a world beater, probably the greatest talent since Merckx if you are to believe that he's doing it clean.

It's not like he was at the back of the grupetto as some posts might suggest (or be wrongly interpreted as saying), but let's not act like anyone saw real promise for him to become a GT champion, or even near what he's become. He's now the utterly dominant "talent" of his generation.

Disagree with the highlighted.

When discussion goes to Froome, we often get the zig zag foto, hanging on to bikes article, pushing Henderson etc etc
All fair, but IMO it dilutes the argument.

To the Blue - who is acting like that?

The kind of talent he's showing now does not just appear, regardless of initial promise at minor races. It is known from day 1. We're talking Hinault, Lemond, Merckx kind of talent.

The list of guys who have done relatively well, showing some promise at an early stage and fallen into obscurity is a very long list indeed. The list of guys who show the kind of talent he's showing is very short, and they all were well known before they even went pro.

Agree.

 

[GuyIncognito]

.

I can't believe it took me 8 months at this forum to notice that your handle is a silly pun

I can be thick sometimes

 

[lllludo]

let's not act like anyone saw real promise for him to become a GT champion, or even near what he's become. He's now the utterly dominant "talent" of his generation.
The kind of talent he's showing now does not just appear, regardless of initial promise at minor races. It is known from day 1. We're talking Hinault, Lemond, Merckx kind of talent.

That is the point. There's a good story to illustrate that in David Walsh's "Inside Team Sky" (p49). In 2011 Froome ran test labs with Julich and Ellingworth and the results were so good that Ellingworth had to check the calibration of the machinery (at least if there was organized doping at Team Sky Ellingworth was not aware )
So the guy has been with the most scientific team for more than 1 year and suddenly they discover an unsuspected potential. The explanation was: Chris has been cured from bilharzia in 2011. The thing is it was said he contracted the disease in 2009 or 2010 (depending on what interview you read).

But in 2008 or before how come his spectacular potential had never been detected ? According to Walsh he was crushing everyone at the 2007 Giro Delle Reggioni putting a "burst of acceleration on the final 1,5km" to win at Montepulciano (excellent wines btw).
In reality Cyril Gautier, now a feared climber with Europcar, was 2nd in the same time and, Astana's ace climber, Andrei Zeits finished 4" later.
His 1,5km kick was much more spectacular in Oman last week thanks to the top-notch breathing technique.

 

[SundayRider]

Then he was quacking as soon as he arrived in Europe.

He won a stage and was 2nd in another at the Giro delle Regioni. That's a good race to spot future talent and he was pretty much best climber.


That sounds reasonable. And I totally agree with the highlighted, I cannot understand how you can be that skinny and not fall apart after a few days.

A couple of years ago I was marathon training and was very lean and was juggling a full time job, stress, probably wasn't eating enough. Obviously I was doing nowhere near Froome level of training, but I got cold/virus's and felt run down very often.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I can't believe it took me 8 months at this forum to notice that your handle is a silly pun

I can be thick sometimes

I have to address this - and apologies to the forum, this is a just a slightly amusing piece to inject (<gettit?) some frivolity in to the thread.

I had a very long exchange with a very nice lady cyclist through twitter DMs and I had a very difficult time understanding her points until she pointed out that obviously I would understand the problems she was alluding to as I am a Doctor and have "ProTour gynecologist" in my twitter bio.

Apologies for the interruption - normal service can resume.

 

[SundayRider]

That is the point. There's a good story to illustrate that in David Walsh's "Inside Team Sky" (p49). In 2011 Froome ran test labs with Julich and Ellingworth and the results were so good that Ellingworth had to check the calibration of the machinery (at least if there was organized doping at Team Sky Ellingworth was not aware )
So the guy has been with the most scientific team for more than 1 year and suddenly they discover an unsuspected potential. The explanation was: Chris has been cured from bilharzia in 2011. The thing is it was said he contracted the disease in 2009 or 2010 (depending on what interview you read).

But in 2008 or before how come his spectacular potential had never been detected ? According to Walsh he was crushing everyone at the 2007 Giro Delle Reggioni putting a "burst of acceleration on the final 1,5km" to win at Montepulciano (excellent wines btw).
In reality Cyril Gautier, now a feared climber with Europcar, was 2nd in the same time and, Astana's ace climber, Andrei Zeits finished 4" later.
His 1,5km kick was much more spectacular in Oman last week thanks to the top-notch breathing technique.

I can remember hearing the result of the Vuelta TT in 2011 - when he beat Wiggins. Thinking Froome who? And trying to rack my brains to try and remember if I had ever heard of him!

 

[red_flanders]

When discussion goes to Froome, we often get the zig zag foto, hanging on to bikes article, pushing Henderson etc etc
All fair, but IMO it dilutes the argument.

One simply need look at his pre-Vuelta 2011 results to have the discussion.

Beyond that, the evaluation by his own DS, the photos of him pushing Henderson are all color around that. It's not diluting the argument, rather it's highlighting it.

To the Blue - who is acting like that?

Anyone arguing he's clean by saying he could be doing this w/o assistance. I don't think it's possible, and if it is, it's not possible for Froome to be doing it.

 

[ebandit]

win

I can remember hearing the result of the Vuelta TT in 2011 - when he beat Wiggins. Thinking Froome who? And trying to rack my brains to try and remember if I had ever heard of him!

sd when froome was riding the tdf with barloworld a friend an ex policeman said to me 'one day froome will win the tdf'

obviously i thought.......................'course he will'

Mark L