Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dr.Sahl]

Sure Andy1234. Warming down post race was invented by Sky in 2012. Got it. You’re 100% correct. Without a doubt. I believe you. Its fact I tell you.

I am a coach for a young football team, I will claim to have invented a new traning session, since I made a few changes to what other team does!!!

So if we win next match, I sure will say it was because of "my" new invension to jump 5 times after a sprint instead of 3.

Its funny that these guys believe Sky invented warming down in 2012....

 

[armchairclimber]

The nerve was hit quite hard now is it? And another thing... really stop before it becomes to embarassing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid

Believe doesn't change facts... it really doesn't.

It figures that you acquire your knowledge from wikipedia.

Still, you'll note the bit about the loss of a proton in solution...as it is in the body...wherein it ceases to be Lactic Acid.

 

[Franklin]

It figures that you acquire your knowledge from wikipedia.

Still, you'll note the bit about the loss of a proton in solution...as it is in the body...wherein it ceases to be Lactic Acid.

The semantic difference between L-Lactate which is commonly known as Lactic Acid. *Huge shrug*

http://running.competitor.com/2010/01/training/the-lactic-acid-myths_7938

The difference between lactic acid and lactate is, for all practical purposes, semantic

And before you try it... I was pointing out the myths about lactate by debunking the warm-down routine

 

[armchairclimber]

The semantic difference between L-Lactate which is commonly known as Lactic Acid. *Huge shrug*

It is only commonly known that way because for a long time, erroneous theories about lactic acid build up were widely held amongst sportsmen and scientists alike.
I don't mind putting you right. You can thank me later.

 

[Franklin]

It is only commonly known that way because for a long time, erroneous theories about lactic acid build up were widely held amongst sportsmen and scientists alike.
I don't mind putting you right. You can thank me later.

Yes, thank you for kicking in your own windows and making the point that Sky's routines are probably not the explanation for the marginal gains!

It's becoming beyond hilarious here when the believers are pummeling down their own edifice with facts

 

[131313]

Marginal gains at best and if you add the inefficiency of having to go up and down that mountain before and after training I'm disputing any real measurable positive effect.

Also notes that the cutoff seems to be four week blocks (no more, no less). As far as I understand that's not how Wiggins uses it. Once again it seems at best a psychological thing.

Well, it's not that inefficient if you drive down. If all you have to do all day is ride your bike, it's not that big a deal. And the effects can be real and quantifiable, on the order of 2-3% (which is a lot). Thing is, it's also highly individual. Some riders will benefit more than others--and some not at all.

One thing that's not equivocal is how altitude training affects performance at altitude. It definitely helps. Then again, not much of this year's Tour is at altitude.

As far as the duration, ideally at least 3 weeks seems to be the sweet spot, but the research for periods longer than that is thin just based on the reality of study groups. I don't think there's any downside to staying longer as long as you can train hard at sea level, which you can do in Tenerife without much difficulty.

 

[armchairclimber]

Yes, thank you for kicking in your own windows and making the point that Sky's routines are probably not the explanation for the marginal gains!

It's becoming beyond hilarious here when the believers are pummeling down their own edifice with facts

No, the big bad bogeyman made them better.

 

[Franklin]

No, the big bad bogeyman made them better.

That's about as much based on facts as the other reasons trotted out

 

[thehog]

I am a coach for a young football team, I will claim to have invented a new traning session, since I made a few changes to what other team does!!!

So if we win next match, I sure will say it was because of "my" new invension to jump 5 times after a sprint instead of 3.

Its funny that these guys believe Sky invented warming down in 2012....

Yes the term “cool down” / “warm down” was invented by Sky.

Here’s the Women’s Team Tibco in early 2011 using a “cool down” after a race. They didn’t know what it was called at the time or why they were doing it until Sky told them it was beneficial and the reason a 50kg man can procedure more power on a bike than Chris Hoy.

http://www.teamtibco.com/archives/2624

"A proper cool down is an often overlooked part of training and racing. The cool down is one of the most important parts of the workout. Cooling down helps your muscles get rid of waste products such as lactic acid, thus allowing your body to relax, recover and repair for the next workout and/or race.

Last month, while we were in California for our Team TIBCO/To the Top training camp, we raced two local races in Merced. The criterium, on Sunday, was my hardest workout to date. At the end of the race, I was very tired and the last thing I wanted to do was to keep riding my bike. However, I knew I would feel better if I continued to ride and cool down. I asked our team mechanic to pull out one of our Kinetic Trainers as the riding near the race finish was not ideal for a proper cool down due to stop signs, traffic, etc."

 

[armchairclimber]

That's about as much based on facts as the other reasons trotted out

If you say so. Now, arguing aside, you would do well to go and learn a bit more about the body's energy systems from somewhere a bit more reliable than Wikipedia.

Who do you think is clean by the way?

 

[Arnout]

Actually even I, amateur non-competition cyclist that I am, try to do a cooling down after a trip (and a warming-up before). It's nothing new at all and I'm absolutely baffled by the attention it is generating.

 

[BroDeal]

Well, there goes the argument for talented riders rising to their natural place at the top now that the Tour is clean.

I cannot wait to see how BPC spins this one. Krebs too.

 

[Franklin]

Who do you think is clean by the way?

I'll be less boorish and answer this one honestly:

I would start looking in the lower half of the spectrum, perhaps someone of Garmin, perhaps even *gasp* Sky.

I will make it worth your while: Even though I'm in full suspicion modus, I still have not made up my mind about Sky. Their recent feeble attempts at transparancy gives me the "wait and see" attitude.

But that does not change one iota that for the time being they are raising red flag after red flag. I fully and ruthlessly commit myself to criticism until they have taken down these flags. Cycling deserves this scrutiny, it certainly has helped the sport those last few years.

And yes, I will do my utmost to show the blind believers that there is a lot of reason to be suspicious and demand answers.

About most teams: in general most teams have really dodgy doctors (for example Saur-Sojasun). I would dismiss all these teams as likely sources for clean performance. Sky is raising red flags here, but they might lower them yet. I certainly assume Geert Leinders is out of a job next year and that's a very, very good thing.

 

[roundabout]

Well, there goes the argument for talented riders rising to their natural place at the top now that the Tour is clean.

I cannot wait to see how BPC spins this one. Krebs too.

Schleck is a hack who doesn't warm down after races. There.

 

[armchairclimber]

"I'll be less boorish and answer this one honestly:

I would start looking in the lower half of the spectrum, perhaps someone of Garmin, perhaps even *gasp* Sky.

I will make it worth your while: Even though I'm in full suspicion modus, I still have not made up my mind about Sky. Their recent feeble attempts at transparancy gives me the "wait and see" attitude."

This is more reasonable...no place for this kind of thing in the clinic.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

"I'll be less boorish and answer this one honestly:

I would start looking in the lower half of the spectrum, perhaps someone of Garmin, perhaps even *gasp* Sky.

I will make it worth your while: Even though I'm in full suspicion modus, I still have not made up my mind about Sky. Their recent feeble attempts at transparancy gives me the "wait and see" attitude."

This is more reasonable...no place for this kind of thing in the clinic.

You are BPC?

 

[Franklin]

This is more reasonable...no place for this kind of thing in the clinic.

I'm sorry, but the amount of reasonable people in the clinic is much higher than you assume.

These guys love cycling, they actually care (a lot), but they are simply utterly sceptical. And they have been proven right a lot of times.

Now Sky has all the hallmarks of USPS #2, not simply for the doping, but the adulation of Wiggins and Sky by the fans has been grating. If Wiggo is indeed guilty of what I suspect he's as big of a tosser as Lance.

And keep in mind that in earlier threads (for example the tenerife thread) the reaction on Sky was relatively benign. Stage 7 and the inflammatory remarks by Wiggins threw the spark. Wiggins truly has himself to blame for the angry remarks from the criticasters.

 

[armchairclimber]

I'm sorry, but the amount of reasonable people in the clinic is much higher than you assume.

These guys love cycling, they actually care (a lot), but they are simply utterly sceptical. And they have been proven right a lot of times.

Now Sky has all the hallmarks of USPS #2, not simply for the doping, but the adulation of Wiggins and Sky by the fans has been grating. If Wiggo is indeed guilty of what I suspect he's as big of a tosser as Lance.

And keep in mind that in earlier threads (for example the tenerife thread) the reaction on Sky was relatively benign. Stage 7 and the inflammatory remarks by Wiggins threw the spark. Wiggins truly has himself to blame for the angry remarks from the criticasters.

IF Wiggins is proved to be doping, I'll be the first to hurl the cow pats. I reckon I'm safe though....whereas I have never had any faith at all in Armstrong.
I'm as tired as anyone of watching heroes turn to villains over the last 20 years.

 

[BroDeal]

IF Wiggins is proved to be doping, I'll be the first to hurl the cow pats. I reckon I'm safe though....whereas I have never had any faith at all in Armstrong.
I'm as tired as anyone of watching heroes turn to villains over the last 20 years.

Wow. No faith in Armstrong. We have not seen a transformation this miraculous since Wiggins learned to climb. Thanks, BPC. This one takes the biscuit.

I think it is hilarious how former Armstrong fanboys have abandoned their man to hop on the Wiggins bandwagon.

 

[Franklin]

IF Wiggins is proved to be doping, I'll be the first to hurl the cow pats. I reckon I'm safe though....whereas I have never had any faith at all in Armstrong.
I'm as tired as anyone of watching heroes turn to villains over the last 20 years.

The huge problem is that if they keep as intransparant as they are now we might never know for sure.

And well, I can only feel scorn for your belief. It saddens me, but so many flags that have to go down before he becomes acceptable. I can't work on faith.

 

[blackcat]

two words two syllables per
a cyclingnews forum arbiter haiku

 

[The Real GFY]

5. Limiting racing and training more would yield improvements too...especially as the cellular damage caused by the acidification of the body during racing can be limited. Training can be focused on what is appropriate without the distraction of trying to win a race.

This thought is not revolutionary and indeed is the approach a great many use when aiming at GT success.

6. Altitude training can replicate some of the benefits of blood doping...especially if timed correctly.

This is now becoming a hotly contested issue in the scientific community. Looks like the jury is out on the exact impact of altitude training.

Shucks, it looks like the whole issue of SKY is just murky as heck. Which makes sense. If there was definite evidence of doping right now, they'd all be ejected. However, if they looked so clean and plausible, then we would not have a thread with over 3000 posts in the matter of a few weeks.

I guess this just points out that while some believe so intensely that SKY is clean and there is 'nothing to see', that is hardly a bulletproof belief.

 

[Franklin]

I guess this just points out that while some believe so intensely that SKY is clean and there is 'nothing to see', that is hardly a bulletproof belief.

You nailed it!

 

[Telmisartan new]

I love this thread.

So do i. Its the gift that keeps on giving!

 

[thehog]

Schleck is a hack who doesn't warm down after races. There.

Yes he wouldn’t warm down and decided to cut corners by resorting to dope. Also Frank didn’t miss his kids parties and is not from Great Britain so he can dope, serve a ban and come back as a hero.