Team tactics - Giro (no doping please)

[Snake8]

What do you all think of various team tactics?

LPR seems to be in the catbird seat without having to have done too much work. Nice Giro for them so far.

Columbia probably comes in a close second as far as tactics and results. One thing I really like about this Columbia team is they race the entire race, unlike some other one dimensional teams (aka formerly known as Astana)

Liquigas, I felt they shot a few too many bullets too early and they really have nothing to show for it. LPR/Columbia are in the same position w/o having the whole team dragging the peleton around Northern Italy. Didnt get to watch todays stage but tuned in for a bit and lo and behold there's Liquigas three guys on the front trying to reel in the break. Why?

Astana, not much to say here. Team seems pretty strong. Horner is a tactical genius and has the form to back it up, love having him as 1st luetenant to Levi. I think maybe that could be the thing that pushes Levi over the top.

Saxo, Garmin are there but aside from Jens not really animating the race. Cervelo is in this group as well.

Caisse, Silence are they even at the Giro?

What do you think? Who has had th best team strategy and execution? And please keep the doping out of this discussion.

 

[ElChingon]

What do you all think of various team tactics?

LPR seems to be in the catbird seat without having to have done too much work. Nice Giro for them so far.

Why should they? They've won two stages or is it Three? and have the Leaders Jersey. They're in the drivers seat and the rest need to get a win or take the jersey before LPR has to do anything. For most teams these current stats will make their year.

Columbia probably comes in a close second as far as tactics and results. One thing I really like about this Columbia team is they race the entire race, unlike some other one dimensional teams (aka formerly known as Astana)

Again, they've taken the TTT, worn the leaders jersey now won another stage, they're comfortable and sitting pretty.

Liquigas, I felt they shot a few too many bullets too early and they really have nothing to show for it. LPR/Columbia are in the same position w/o having the whole team dragging the peleton around Northern Italy. Didnt get to watch todays stage but tuned in for a bit and lo and behold there's Liquigas three guys on the front trying to reel in the break. Why?

Well they need their win and keep their leaders in position and if they have the power why not use it to put some hurt on the other teams. They most likely have taken a few contenders out of contention with their tactics and still have at least Basso in contention for the leaders jersey, they're doing fine, still need a win or the leaders jersey.

Astana, not much to say here. Team seems pretty strong. Horner is a tactical genius and has the form to back it up, love having him as 1st luetenant to Levi. I think maybe that could be the thing that pushes Levi over the top.

Typical Johan tactics, they're going for the overall GC so they're not wasting any energy on anything other than the overall GC and it shows. Sure they have won enough GT's but still boring to watch.

Saxo, Garmin are there but aside from Jens not really animating the race. Cervelo is in this group as well.

Garmin is now in the desperation state they were a year ago, sure they have the guarantee Tour invite but no wins they don't look to eager to get a win either or not able to get a win. Farrar still has a chance at a stage but will his team line him up? I think a major re-tooling of the team is in order and quit with the American riders or English speaking riders only, that's so dumb in this century.

Caisse, Silence are they even at the Giro?

They're there but as we all know its not their bag so other than a high placing on a stage don't expect much more. Sad I know, I'd want more from Rodrigues on Caisse, ,maybe a roller stage? Silence, what do they have? Hopefully something, they need a win super bad!

What do you think? Who has had th best team strategy and execution? And please keep the XXXng out of this discussion.

Next time don't even bring up the latter!

 

[180mmCrank]

I think as the days go by we will see some of the other teams play some cards- it's early yet. There are some teams (and some individual riders) who once they find their legs will want to show more than we have seen so far.

 

[ingsve]

Silence Lottos only real hope of winning is if there ever is a break that gets 15 minutes that the peloton doesn't mind letting go. That usually only hapens late in week two or in week three though. Right now there are too many teams that hasn't won anything so they don't let breaks just go and win. Also since there are still people in breaks, except for yesterday, that are close on the GC there won't be any breaqks winning by 15 minutes with such riders in it.

 

[jaylew]

What do you all think of various team tactics?

LPR seems to be in the catbird seat without having to have done too much work. Nice Giro for them so far.

Columbia probably comes in a close second as far as tactics and results. One thing I really like about this Columbia team is they race the entire race, unlike some other one dimensional teams (aka formerly known as Astana)

Yeah, I'd say it's a nice Giro for LPR so far! 3 stage wins, the pink, mtns, and points jerseys. Great for Columbia, too. 2 stage wins, and two riders for GC and the young riders jersey. Plus, you've still gotta figure Cav for a win somewhere.

Liquigas, I felt they shot a few too many bullets too early and they really have nothing to show for it. LPR/Columbia are in the same position w/o having the whole team dragging the peleton around Northern Italy. Didnt get to watch todays stage but tuned in for a bit and lo and behold there's Liquigas three guys on the front trying to reel in the break. Why?

Saxo, Garmin are there but aside from Jens not really animating the race. Cervelo is in this group as well.

Saxo, Garmin...no real point in discussing them. They have no GC candidates and this race isn't their primary focus. They'll just hope to get a stage win like most other teams. Discussing the other Italian teams would be far more meaningful.

Caisse, Silence are they even at the Giro?

Caisse rather quietly has a couple of riders in the top 20, including one in the top 20. With Arroyo performing so well, it frees up Rodriguez to go for a stage win somewhere.



Lampre and Liquigas are the two big guns with all the pressure on them and so far, I don't know. Well, Lampre's been downright disappointing. They no longer have top-flight sprinters on their team as they've let Napolitano and Bennati go in recent years, and their GC men have been mediocre at best. We should start seeing them send riders in breakaways at this point. They're probably going to have to win 2 or 3 stages or this Giro will be a bust. Liquigas obviously has everything riding on Basso. Peli losing time might be good for them, ultimately.

ISD and Acqua Sapone are there to win stages and have done a good job getting in breaks for the most part, just haven't been lucky yet. They'll keep trying and I wouldn't bet against them both getting a stage win somewhere. Serramenti isn't technically an Italian team but 75% of their roster, most of their sponsors, and their DS are Italian so they may as well be. What can you say about them? They're always good. They always win a bunch of races and they are always visible. I don't think Savio gets near enough credit.

Rabo and Cervelo seem to have played their cards well thus far. They didn't bring their top squads but have candidates for the podium. They're just letting the Italian teams animate the race for the most part and letting Menchov and Sastre follow wheels and pick their spots. I expect more of the same, with Sastre certainly having a go in the mountains at some point.

Sorry for the long post fellas, but I got on a roll.

 

[benpounder]

A bit of a double standard i've noticed when the topic is Astana/Disco/USPostal:

Typical Johan tactics, they're going for the overall GC so they're not wasting any energy on anything other than the overall GC and it shows. Sure they have won enough GT's but still boring to watch.

Saxo, Garmin...no real point in discussing them. They have no GC candidates and this race isn't their primary focus.

How about Cervelo or RaboBank? They have GC considerations. How about Quickstep and Silence/Lotto? Seems just a training ride for them. /rant

Maybe it is just the first week of the first Grand Tour. Naturally the big Italian teams, Liquigas and Lampre, have shown themselves. And the Conti Italian teams have tried - with success. That Columbia has been in the mix is not at all surprising, they do have the best sprinter around. Interesting to note Cav's criticism of Garmin. I'm sure it was Columbia's game plan to set Cav up for Pink. Typical GT tactics - do well in the initial TT and take the jersey the next days on time bonuses.

IMO it is too early to analyse overall team tactics.

 

[jaylew]

benpounder - I don't get your point and I'm completely missing what the rant is supposed to be about. And you do know you took quotes from two different people, right? Just trying to understand your post.

And I'm not saying there's not sometimes an Astana double standard on this forum, but where is it in this thread?

 

[Leopejo]

Strange, I have opposite views to the OP.

LPR and Columbia have done their share of work, both for their sprinters and when defending the maglia rosa. A work that has paid off well for now, but work the same.

Liquigas instead have ridden very smart. They haven't worked so much. Apart from keeping their leader safe (see yesterday's finish), they have only worked on the last climb of both "mountain" stages. And that work paid huge dividends on Alpe di Siusi, with many potential GC contenders shelled off. What more would you expect from them?

The last two stages lasted almost six hours each. You have to consider the total work in the whole stage, not just who is in the lead when approaching the finish.

No, I'm not saying that LPR or Columbia rode less smartly than Liquigas, just that they have done their share of work. Having the Giro's potentially best sprinters takes something from their GC efforts.

***

Rabobank and Cervelo haven't had to work at all for now. We don't know yet if Menchov and Sastre respectively have a good team for when they need it.

Astana is strong. If Levi takes the pink next Thursday, we'll see the good ol' US Postal/Discovery train.

Those other non-GC contender teams live by the day, hoping that as people get more and more tired better breakaway possibilities arise.

 

[Delicato]

Silence Lottos only real hope of winning is if there ever is a break that gets 15 minutes that the peloton doesn't mind letting go. That usually only hapens late in week two or in week three though. Right now there are too many teams that hasn't won anything so they don't let breaks just go and win. Also since there are still people in breaks, except for yesterday, that are close on the GC there won't be any breaqks winning by 15 minutes with such riders in it.

I hope that Philippe Gilbert will get a chance to win today, the profile is suited to him.

Katusha in this race just sucks, Pozzato is clean in this year? I haven't noticed his presence so far.

 

[Leopejo]

Katusha in this race just sucks, Pozzato is clean in this year? I haven't noticed his presence so far.

Pozzato tried in the second stage, where Ben Swift took a surprise third. The team worked two stages ago, but wasn't able to get Scarponi back and Pozzato came third in the (meaningless) sprint. Pavel Brutt was in yesterday's breakaway and earlier too perhaps. I have also heard Klimov and Serov in some breakaways.

They haven't succeeded yet, but they are trying.

 

[benpounder]

And you do know you took quotes from two different people, right?

Yeah, that is why I admitted to it being a rant on my part. I was just pointing out that two different teams using similar tactics often are viewed two different ways. In other words, it is not the tactic being criticized.

Further, I entirely agree with Leopejo assessment - unstated but quite evident (to me at least) is that it is too early to fully appreciate how successful each team tactics have played out.

 

[ElChingon]

Well it is week 1 so its the week 1 view at the very least. We can re-play it come week 2 and 3?

 

[benpounder]

No, I'm not saying that LPR or Columbia rode less smartly than Liquigas, just that they have done their share of work. Having the Giro's potentially best sprinters takes something from their GC efforts.

LPR and DiLuca in particular, along with Columbia riders that will be needed for support of Rogers(/Lovkvist?) later in the race are working very hard right now. With tomorrows crit, one has to wonder how long before that effort starts showing.

 

[Snake8]

C'mon guys, you really think because it is the end of the first week that you can't discuss tactics? I'm sorry but that is ***. Should we just not talk about the race at all until it is over?

Anyway, Leopejo, who are you thinking of that Liquigas shelled? I don't really see that they dropped any "real" contendors. Yes they got rid of most of the pretenders, but all the really big names are still there and Basso has yet to show he can put time into any of them on the climbs.

And ingsve, are we watching the same race? Breaks have succeeded far more often that one might expect in the first week of a GT. No, not 15 minute breaks, but I'm not sure why it matters if the break is 15 minutes or ten or five. Haven't at least three or four stages been won by "non-threatening riders" in breaks?

 

[ingsve]

And ingsve, are we watching the same race? Breaks have succeeded far more often that one might expect in the first week of a GT. No, not 15 minute breaks, but I'm not sure why it matters if the break is 15 minutes or ten or five. Haven't at least three or four stages been won by "non-threatening riders" in breaks?

That's not the type of breaks that for example Silence - Lotto has any chance in. Like today, they only had 1 guy that managed to stay with the main group over the big climb in the middle of the stage. The rest finished way behind.

The only real stage they could have had a chance on was yesterdays stage. The other stages most of their riders were not in a position to do anything. In fact their team seems very weak overall so I stick with my original assessment. Their only real chances are staying away in breaks that are given lots of time so that they contest the win among 6-10 riders.

Just because there are breaks holding in doesn't mean that any team could manage that.

 

[ingsve]

Speaking of tactics. Today we saw examples of good team tactics and some bad tactics. The good part was Horner, Rogers and Pelizotti going in a break. They were all the no 2 guy in their team in the GC but they are still dangerous people to give alot of time to so the other teams would be forced to work to bring them back.

The bad tactic was when Leipheimer himself attacked. First of all he attacked by himself to bridge the gap to the people that were already ahead. This means that he had to do all that work himself. Secondly it made the threat even bigger which means that the peloton would work even harder to bring them in but most importantly it means that the people in the break might be less keen on working hard in the break when Astana would be the main beneficiaries. This is exactly what with saw with Pelizotti not working in the break.

So what started out as a good move turned into a bonehead move when Leipheimer just couldn't sit still...

 

[Leopejo]

Anyway, Leopejo, who are you thinking of that Liquigas shelled? I don't really see that they dropped any "real" contendors. Yes they got rid of most of the pretenders, but all the really big names are still there and Basso has yet to show he can put time into any of them on the climbs.

I have never seen such a carnage in the Giro's first climb, nor in the first week. Giro is no Tour! Pellizzotti, Cunego, Simoni, Bruseghin, Garzelli, Armstrong too (sorry), Siutsiu, the Garmin guys, etc. etc. That's quite a list. Only five contenders survived, plus Horner and Lovkvist. And all thanks to the Liquigas tactics.

There is no guarantee that Ivan will win the Giro: Menchov, Sastre, Leipheimer and Di Luca all have their strength, and probably the strongest will win. But Liquigas did exactly what they were supposed to do.

What would you have done differently, if you were the Liquigas boss? The one and only thing I can think of: sacrifice Pellizzotti too. But that is the "problem" in having two captains: you won't find out the true captain before the first real climb. And when you find out it's too late, if you are dropped you can't pull. Still I prefer to have two potential contenders in a team than only one, as long as they get along well and understand their roles - after that first real climb.

If Liquigas didn't pull, if Basso didn't have his forcing, a) there would still be more riders in contention (bad), b) the stage would have been more difficult to control and some attacker(s) would have gained time on Basso (bad).

 

[benpounder]

The good part was Horner, Rogers and Pelizotti going in a break.

You must be joking. Rogers is as big a threat as Leipheimer - he is sitting third on the GC. That is why Horner jumped in the break to begin with.

[my edit]I was mistaken. Horner covered domestiques and Rogers eventually joined him - after he continued off the front.

 

[bianchigirl]

Rabobank had this to say:

LL's attacked was frowned upon. 'We (RAB) weren't nervous' says DS van Houwelingen. 'We are actually even a little excited. We could rather appreciate Levi's attack. A big gun who wastes his energy like that in a transition stage, I think, isn't too confident about his chances to win the overall, and that opinion is shared amongst other teams'. Menchov agreed with his DS. 'Denis intentionally stayed in the pack. It was over 20k, and the other favourites weren't really isolated at all'

Menchov even observed that on the last small climb to the finish, LL didn't leave a good impression. 'He (LL) was struggling to hang in there' is what the Russian told his DS...

so we'll see if LL is paying for his attack, or that he was actually really strong and let the legs do the talking...

Remember how Rabobank took Astana to pieces in Pari-Nice?

 

[benpounder]

Astana team manager Johan Bruyneel said the attack was not planned.

“The plan was just to stay with the favorites and stay out of trouble. But all of a sudden there was this little group and Horner was in there, Rogers was in there and Levi saw that LPR wasn't looking very strong,” he said.

“He made the decision himself to bridge across and I think it was a smart move. Di Luca and (Ivan) Basso weren't there. With a little bit of luck they could have made it to the finish and took a minute. Who knows? It was a good try without spending so much energy. I think it was a smart move."

What I found more interesting was this comment by DiLuca:

"There was no panic when Leipheimer attacked; I knew we were still a long way from the finish,”

Funny how he thinks Leipheimer going of the front is a concern, but not Rogers. Of course this following comment kinda negates that:

"The other teams with an interest in the maglia rosa, Rabobank, Cervélo, Diquigiovanni, came up to the front and helped us bring the escape back.

Let's see. #3 Rogers (THR), #4 Leipheimer (AST), #9 Pellizotti (LIQ), #10 Arroyo (GCE) were up the road along with Italian stars Cunego (LAM) and Garzelli (ASA). So who is doing the chasing? The teams of #1 DiLuca (LPR), #5 Menchov (RAB), #6 Sastre (CTT) and #11 Simoni (SDA)

Also interesting what Horner had to say of the earlier break:

About half way up it, a big group of 10 riders or so got away. It looked good, but the Lampre team had no one in it and weren't happy about that fact. They rode flat out along the false flat until we hit the next climb, which was about seven miles long and very steep. The gap to the break was at 2.5 minutes, and Lampre was still riding all out to try and get someone in it.

The hard pace had reduced the field to about a fourth of its original size by the time we hit the summit, which meant that people were a little unhappy. Lampre had made no friends in the field today.

 

[Snake8]

Allright! Now we're talking tactics.

I don't have a lot to add as i could not watch today's stage. But back to Leo's comment about Liquigas. I believe it is too early in a GT to play the game Liqui did on the first big climbing stage. They acted like they had the MR (or thought they could get it). Now maybe they thought Basso couldn't take time in the TT so they had to get a cushion as soon as possible. But IMO, that's a big risk to take that early in the race. They did not fail, but I dont think they got the reward that such a high risk play would warrant. It remains to be seen if that ploy works out for them or not, but as of today they have nothing to show for their efforts as compared to LPR/Columbia. Astana sits in the middle, not having had to drive the peleton but also having little to show for it at this point - but that is exactly the Astana plan. In all, if the race ended today, you'd have to say Liqui had a disappointing Giro. But thankfully we have two more weeks!!!!

Cant wait for the TT. This is shaping up to be fun race.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Too many climbing stages left to judge Liquigas strategy. If they can recover in time for some of the mountain stages in the future, and put some serious hurt into riders, it will have been a smart tactic.

Keep in mind what they tried to do on Stage 4 and especially 5. They wanted to set a fast pace to make sure the climbers could not easily attack and head up the mountain and isolate Basso making him chase. To have DiLuca, Soler, Simoni, Sastre, Cunego, etc. launch attack after attack and get into little groups leaving Basso in no man's land not do Basso/Liquigas much good either. So they'll probably continue to keep high paces on penultimate climbs, and up final climbs in order to launch Basso.

Indurain and Lance used this strategy to perfection. Granted, they were on very powerful teams though. Not sure if Liquidgas has that in them. They may have to be pretty selective where they want to push the limits. Stage 10 looks like maybe a bad place to try it. Stage 16 however is where I expect they'll do all they can to wear everyone out and get the group very select at the end where Basso can just step on the gas and see who can stay with.

Levi said Basso is the one rider he fears the most, and it's because of Basso's pure speed on the climbs. Not because of his ability to cover breaks and launch attacks.

Assuming everything goes to plan, and Basso really does get 100% back, I'd even venture to say in the 2010 Tour he may have enough of an engine to drop even Contador on some of the climbs. Providing he's on a team that can assist his style.

 

[ingsve]

What I found more interesting was this comment by DiLuca: Funny how he thinks Leipheimer going of the front is a concern, but not Rogers.

Huh? His quote was that there was NO panic when LL attacked. How did you turn that into him thinking it was a concern?

The way I see the situation is that no break involving any of the top guys could have any chance at all so far from the finish to stay away until the end. It's just not happening. Di Luca knew this and subsequently was not panicing.

The main benefit with a break like that is that you send your number 2 guys in the break so that the other teams are forced to waste energy to bring them back which will help your main rider in the long run because the other teams get more tired while your main guy can just come along for the ride.

Leipheimer attacking makes no sense at all. Thinking it was a good opportunity to gain some time was just ludicrous. It hurt him more in every way which was blatantly obvious imo.

 

[Leopejo]

But back to Leo's comment about Liquigas. I believe it is too early in a GT to play the game Liqui did on the first big climbing stage. They acted like they had the MR (or thought they could get it). Now maybe they thought Basso couldn't take time in the TT so they had to get a cushion as soon as possible. But IMO, that's a big risk to take that early in the race.

People in this forum are complaining that there are not enough mountains in this Giro, and they have a point. Therefore you can't let a big mountain stage pass! Especially as the next real mountain stage is one and a half weeks later. If you are, or hope to be, the strongest in the mountains, you have to take advantage of that mountain stage, by shelling as many contenders as possible and putting the hurt on the rest: the result of which should show in both the TT and the future mountain stages.

They did not fail, but I dont think they got the reward that such a high risk play would warrant. It remains to be seen if that ploy works out for them or not, but as of today they have nothing to show for their efforts as compared to LPR/Columbia.

They do have an Ivan Basso in the top 10 and many potential contenders eliminated. The alternative would have been worse. Liquigas as of now is focusing on Ivan Basso winning the race. If a stage win comes, that's better, but not their priority.

In all, if the race ended today, you'd have to say Liqui had a disappointing Giro.

Liquigas raced as they were supposed to. They weren't expecting stage wins at this point and they have Ivan right up there where they wanted. I wouldn't call it disappointing.

 

[ElChingon]

Tomorrows stage (or is it today's now ) is a great stage for the USA based riders to show their Crit Racing savy! If the USA based riders treat it like a Crit they may just take it! Would be a great coo (sp?) if they did.