Team Time Trials

[Ryo Hazuki]

1 Colnago - CSF Inox 0:20:23
2 Androni Giocattoli - Venezuela 0:00:04
3 Liquigas - Cannondale 0:00:07
4 Lampre - ISD 0:00:20
5 Acqua & Sapone 0:00:24
6 Farnese Vini Selle Italia 0:00:25
7 Itera Katusha
8 Topsport Vlaanderen - Mercator 0:00:26
9 Lokosphinx
10 Ccc Polsat Polkowice 0:00:32

1 BMC RACING TEAM USA 15:50
2 ASTANA PRO TEAM KAZ +10
3 COLNAGO - CSF INOX IRL +13
4 ANDRONI GIOCATTOLI - VENEZUELA ITA +15
5 ACQUA & SAPONE ITA +16
6 LIQUIGAS-CANNONDALE ITA +19
7 TEAM NETAPP GER +23
8 LAMPRE - ISD ITA +24
9 UTENSILNORD NAMED IRL +38
10 SPIDERTECH POWERED BY C10 CAN +44

also rujano had a flat tire in the giro 2012 ttt they lost 40 seconds with that according to savio. so get your facts straight first

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Giro d'Italia results are more important than Giro di Padania results, Ryo. Otherwise I'd point at Xacobeo-Galicía being 2nd in a Vuelta a Burgos TTT a couple of years ago. Only the Italian teams (and even then not that many of them) give a crap about the Giro di Padania.

 

[cineteq]

You've gone on to say Armstrong doping is a separate argument, as he broke the rules - fair enough. What you have failed to acknowledge in your post above though is that mountain stages and ITTs are still based on an individual skill. Not your team mates being the strongest and making you up time. TTTs aren't fair because it's not your result, it's your team's you can be a passenger. ITT and Mountains are both much more individual silks. Team mates can help in the mountains, but it's still your time that counts.

It's not that I failed to mention it. It's the way I justify the TTTs in GTs. A TTT is another stage which in fact is another obstacle that happens to involve all teammates. There is pre-production/team-selection tactical component which I found it adds to the drama. The ITT is the only pure individual contribution to a GC, in the mountain stages you need helpers most of the time, refer to Sky's 2012 TdF as an exaggerated example.

Read this post on small teams which have improved their TTT abilities.

not the best team but a good team it can make you. again check colnago and acqua sapone this yera how much they improved and they have the same riders

 

[The Hitch]

1 Colnago - CSF Inox 0:20:23
2 Androni Giocattoli - Venezuela 0:00:04
3 Liquigas - Cannondale 0:00:07
4 Lampre - ISD 0:00:20
5 Acqua & Sapone 0:00:24
6 Farnese Vini Selle Italia 0:00:25
7 Itera Katusha
8 Topsport Vlaanderen - Mercator 0:00:26
9 Lokosphinx
10 Ccc Polsat Polkowice 0:00:32

1 BMC RACING TEAM USA 15:50
2 ASTANA PRO TEAM KAZ +10
3 COLNAGO - CSF INOX IRL +13
4 ANDRONI GIOCATTOLI - VENEZUELA ITA +15
5 ACQUA & SAPONE ITA +16
6 LIQUIGAS-CANNONDALE ITA +19
7 TEAM NETAPP GER +23
8 LAMPRE - ISD ITA +24
9 UTENSILNORD NAMED IRL +38
10 SPIDERTECH POWERED BY C10 CAN +44

also rujano had a flat tire in the giro 2012 ttt they lost 40 seconds with that according to savio. so get your facts straight first

Put Androni into the Tour and they will finish the ttt outside the time limit. Its probably the reason ASO dont bother inviting them in the first place.

 

[abbaskip]

you are obviously clueless about ttt's and have never rode a bike yourself

Haha, is that right mate. I've ridden since I was about 5 on the track and the road.

When I say someone a climber can gain a huge advantage without working too hard, I mean relatively. Schleck has to work hard just to stay with his team during a TTT, but he hardly contributes to the time anywhere near as much as Contador, Wiggins or Evans would for their team.

Yes, I understand that just riding at that pace hurts. Yes I understand the climber still needs to contribute. But I don't understand how it is fair to an individual to gain loads of time on a stage where their contribution is minimal, and it's a TEAM result. Mountain stages are completely different - it's still an individual stage. Sucking a wheel on a mountain stage gains you much less than on a flat stage - the primary resistance is the slope, not the wind. Rivals also have the option of following your wheel on these stages - the other GC climbers only had to work as hard as Wiggins last year. This isn't the case in a TTT. Evans can't just decide he is better off following Leopard in a TTT for example.

 

[abbaskip]

Put Androni into the Tour and they will finish the ttt outside the time limit. Its probably the reason ASO dont bother inviting them in the first place.

But Hitch, didn't you read!? All those teams have to do is practice for the TTT, and they'd be the best.

Who cares about having the best individual candidate for the GC...

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Put Androni into the Tour and they will finish the ttt outside the time limit. Its probably the reason ASO dont bother inviting them in the first place.

lol. you are so clueless often when it comes to cycling. androni murder euskaltel in any ttt and they don't even finish outiside time limits in the tour. besides androni never wants a wildcard for the tour. but you of course don't understand as you think the tour is most important for everyone, but it's not

 

[greenedge]

A Grand Tour GC should be about the best rider, not the best team. Teams will always influence results, but they shouldn't have as much control as they do in the Team Time Trial.

What about the early TTT stages where they were very long and would be every stage bar mountains. That in a sense fosters team culture. Besides most teams that perform well in a TTT position their leaders well/ influence a road stage. Look to BMC last year at the TDF helping Cadel in the first week or HTC shattering the peleton in 2009.
I do agree that TTT's sometimes have too much emphasis and it stops riders like Samu but they have over the last few TDF's spaced them out, having 1 one year and then not the next.

 

[The Hitch]

lol. you are so clueless often when it comes to cycling. androni murder euskaltel in any ttt and they don't even finish outiside time limits in the tour. besides androni never wants a wildcard for the tour. but you of course don't understand as you think the tour is most important for everyone, but it's not

Ah the old "clueless about cycling" ryo special. Yet i am touched that for me you threw.in the qualifier "often" so ill be gentle.

Ryo, it was not a serious post. I said if androni were at the tour ( hypothetical) they would finish the ttt outside the time limit (hyperbole) and that's probably why they don't get invited (humour).

H h h. Just like your idol Paul levesque

As for claiming i overrate the tour, generally im seen on here as one of.the big tdf haterZ.

Point stands though that i think androni would get mashed in a tdf ttt. Or a worlds one for that matter.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

explain to me movistars worlds ttt then or liquigas, not real itt specialists were in those either. dedication and training is what is needed and guys that are of similar level to each other(balance). something androni has for instance

 

[abbaskip]

explain to me movistars worlds ttt then or liquigas, not real itt specialists were in those either. dedication and training is what is needed and guys that are of similar level to each other(balance). something androni has for instance

I think you're the one clueless about cycling. You think other teams aren't dedicated to training?? As mentioned over and over, a team of ITTers doesn't make a strong TTT team. The average speed is higher, they do much shorter turns on front etc. Of course one or two ITTers can help a TTT team with a backbone. But they're not necessarily the best. In fact, speed and strength wise, the teams with good leadout trains have much closer skillsets than ITTs

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

that's what I've been saying but training and dedication can make you improve a lot. unfortunately at least 50% of the teams in wt and pct(even more) never even train it. ever wodnered why bmc almost always crash? because they never train it. they even admitted so many times this year

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

itt and ttt have almost nothing to do with each other. ttt is a discpline on it's one and when trained and prepared well you won't lose much time. see androni and colnago this year for instance or acqua en sapone how much they improved without itt monsters

here I said it

 

[abbaskip]

here I said it

I know you did. Yet then you say this:

explain to me movistars worlds ttt then or liquigas, not real itt specialists were in those either.

That's irrelevant.

Movistar was similar to the Credit Agricole team that won years ago in the tdf.

Castroviejo, Cobo, Valverde, Intxausti, Lastras aren't great ITTers, but they're quite strong, and fast enough that for shorter turns they'd be a really strong team. You don't want an ITTer to sit on the front at 50km/h for fifteen minutes, you want guys like those above to sit on the front for 2-3minutes at 55km/h.

Erviti has quite a TTT pedigree too.

And Sprinters (especially stronger ones like JJ Rojas) are often very helpful in a TTT. Get some early fast and hard turns out of the way, then it doesn't matter how much time they lose if they drop off.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I know you did. Yet then you say this:


That's irrelevant.

I clearly said that to the hitch

 

[abbaskip]

I clearly said that to the hitch

Who you were speaking to doesn't matter. What you said is irrelevant in the context of a TTT, regardless of where it was directed

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Who you were speaking to doesn't matter. What you said is irrelevant in the context of a TTT, regardless of where it was directed

mother of god... do you even understand the point of disucssion I was having with hitch? :facepalm:

 

[abbaskip]

mother of god... do you even understand the point of disucssion I was having with hitch? :facepalm:

Yes, I do. This isn't a personal argument about you vs Hitch, I'm arguing with WHAT you said.

Hitch never mentions needing strong ITTers in the post you're responding to either. He just mentions other teams he believes would be weak in a TTT situation. You were the one to bring up ITTers. I pointed out their irrelevance, now you're running in circles stating the comment was directed at Hitch etc. This is an internet forum, everyone can read what has been said to whom, it's not a personal statement where only Hitch would understand the context. What you said was irrelevant, and merely a distraction from the main point. END OF STORY.

 

[Magnus]

Yes, I do. This isn't a personal argument about you vs Hitch, I'm arguing with WHAT you said.

Hitch never mentions needing strong ITTers in the post you're responding to either. He just mentions other teams he believes would be weak in a TTT situation. You were the one to bring up ITTers. I pointed out their irrelevance, now you're running in circles stating the comment was directed at Hitch etc. This is an internet forum, everyone can read what has been said to whom, it's not a personal statement where only Hitch would understand the context. What you said was irrelevant, and merely a distraction from the main point. END OF STORY.

Hitch said that Androni would finish outside the time limit in a TdF TTT. Androni isn't exactly known to be a team build around strong tt'ers. It's not that much of a stretch to suggest that Hitch thinks Androni would do badly at a TdF TTT because it is a team of week tt'ers.

 

[The Hitch]

Hitch said that Androni would finish outside the time limit in a TdF TTT. Androni isn't exactly known to be a team build around strong tt'ers. It's not that much of a stretch to suggest that Hitch thinks Androni would do badly at a TdF TTT because it is a team of week tt'ers.

Correct, apart from the fact that i do understand that its not just tters who can excell in a ttt, sprinters and hardman riders are great too and sometimes climbers as well and a lot of riders who do not excell at the individual discipline.

And of course a good organization can help make up for some weaknesses.


Yet stronger teams can also get the technical aspect of the discipline right and man for man does matter, and since I dont buy into the Rujano rider of the century idea, I do not rate Androni as highly as some and feel they would really struggle in a tdf ttt.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Pro TTT, but I like them to be short, because I do consider them to mostly be a spectacle.

Huh, looking at the 2003 TDF results it says there was no winner. So I'm confused as to what effect the TTT had that year, if any.

 

[Boeing]

On with a pure climb followed by a pure descent would be watchable and stir the pot. start at pure incline. end at pure decline fifth wheel gets the time.

 

[Matthijs]

Castroviejo, Cobo, Valverde, Intxausti, Lastras aren't great ITTers, but they're quite strong, and fast enough that for shorter turns they'd be a really strong team. You don't want an ITTer to sit on the front at 50km/h for fifteen minutes, you want guys like those above to sit on the front for 2-3minutes at 55km/h.

Erviti has quite a TTT pedigree too.

Actually, Castroviejo, Intxausti and Valverde are great ITT'ers with top 10s in big ITTs. Valverde is not very consistent, but before his ban he had some good results. The others aren't that bad eather, but remember that Erviti and Lastras probably are not riding for the best in most ITT since they have to work for their captain the day before/after. Cobo is off course very non-consistent, but in his top10 GC Vuelta (09?) he was good in the ITT and of course when he won too.
Actually I was surprised at the TTT that start the Vuelta even the belgium sporza commentators did not realise Movistar in their one GT would be a serious candidate.

Is it also possible Italian and Spanish teams have more riders living in the same country, so they have better opportunities to train together. Off course other teams can arrange that too, but it's easier if it's a one hour flight then a 3 our. And if your an Italian team your going to check the TTT with all of the team members and not just with the GC guys and who-ever seem to have some time like most PT-teams?