Team Type 1 - Pro tour?

[kurtinsc]

Being a type 1 diabetic, I'm very supportive of this particular team... but it seems like they keep setting their sights way out of their reach.

Last year they were talking about the Giro this year and Tour next year... and I thought they were simply not good enough to be thinking about that.

Now that they have not been invited to the Giro, they are talking about seeking pro-tour status next year.

This just seems insane to me. I know the end goal is to get an invite to the TDF... and they may get there one day. They are improving their talent each year and are definitely on an upward trajectory... but they simply aren't that close yet. And I worry that talking in this way will eventually drive sponsorships away as people who are misled into thinking TT1 would be at the tour have to settle for the TOC and a limited european calendar.

So... a question to you:

Is there any feasible scenario with TT1 having space to sign 6-7 riders where they might be able to upgrade their team enough to warrant a PT spot? Based on guys we think might be on the market and might risk a shot at a team like TT1.

Right now they sit at 26th overall in CQ (but will likely fall as other teams get to ride at bigger events). Their top 5 riders would be something like:

Jure Kocjan
Alexander Efimkin
Rubens Bertogliati
Laszlo Bodrogi
and ????

Even if they signed a group like BMC did when they got Evans/Hincapie/Ballan... I'm not sure that would be enough.

 

[ingsve]

Do they even have the budget to get into the PT? They would been a diabetic billionaire that could open his pockets for them to have a shot at doing something like BMC has done.

 

[Ferminal]

The only way they could make it was if team(s) folded and lots of good riders all of a sudden became available (and possibly 1 or 2 top tier licenses).

As things are right now I have difficulties seeing them ahead of Geox, FdJ, Cofidis, Europcar, Androni, Green Edge... They don't seem like the team which has the resources to make a real big push at it, so keep trying to grow gradually, working on invites and adding depth to their roster. A big budget boost changes everything, but it would have to be very large.

 

[Jamsque]

They are a good team, and I appreciate that they are trying to grow in to the Pro Tour rather than buy their way in, but they would have been out of their depth at the Giro this year. They need to develop some guys, maybe get a new sponsor or two, and sign some good riders. If they can do that they'll be ready for a bigger European calendar next year, and maybe the Giro. Without a huge cash injection they aren't going Pro Tour before 2013, and even that is a big ask.

Of course, if they start raking in the wins, that all goes out the window.

 

[hrotha]

I think it's just PR, throwing their name around so that people get used to them. It's a fine strategy as long as you actually have different, more realistic short-term goals to work on when no one's looking. In that regard, Team Type 1 appears to be building up slowly, and they should continue doing that. So far they've been largely a one-man show after all.

 

[kurtinsc]

I think it's just PR, throwing their name around so that people get used to them. It's a fine strategy as long as you actually have different, more realistic short-term goals to work on when no one's looking. In that regard, Team Type 1 appears to be building up slowly, and they should continue doing that. So far they've been largely a one-man show after all.

I guess I wonder if that type of PR is good.

As I said... I like the team... but it's not like they're even close to a pro-tour roster. It's one thing to build PR if you are a few riders short. They seem to be more like 10 riders short though. I guess if they are honest with the sponsors it would be okay... but if the sponsors are believing their PR it seems like a bad idea.

They aren't close to a team like Skil-Shimano or Landbouwkrediet even... let alone a pro-tour squad.

 

[TRDean]

I guess I wonder if that type of PR is good.

As I said... I like the team... but it's not like they're even close to a pro-tour roster. It's one thing to build PR if you are a few riders short. They seem to be more like 10 riders short though. I guess if they are honest with the sponsors it would be okay... but if the sponsors are believing their PR it seems like a bad idea.

They aren't close to a team like Skil-Shimano or Landbouwkrediet even... let alone a pro-tour squad.

I like Team Type 1 as well. I generally like the smaller teams that try to build themselves into contenders in the main races. I like that they throw big challenges out there...for themselves and everyone else. They are now getting a lot of the same criticisms (if you can call it that) that Skil get...making big claims...trying to get into races they probably don't belong in. But hey..they are doing it the right way! Not buying established huge talent..taking risks on guys..just to make the big races. Enjoy the ride...and hopefully they will make big waves in the future!

 

[BroDeal]

A couple of years ago these guys were bringing Europeans to the U.S. and the operation was so low budget that the riders felt they were treated like slaves. Now they want us to believe they have an extra $10M a year to become a Pro Tour team? I don't think so.

I always got the feeling that the management was a bunch of d-bags exploiting a disease for their own benefit.

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

over the last few years, there have been many new superteams and teams saying they'll get to the Tour in x years. Now, there is pretty much no room left for more of them. The GT and ProTeam selections have become extremely competitive, and so, i don't think that TT1 is going to be getting in the Tour any time soon. Though it would be cool to have a Georgia-based ProTeam.

 

[Boeing]

Well all I know is Thomas Rabou has sick fitness and I'd like to see him ride for 3 weeks

 

[kurtinsc]

A couple of years ago these guys were bringing Europeans to the U.S. and the operation was so low budget that the riders felt they were treated like slaves. Now they want us to believe they have an extra $10M a year to become a Pro Tour team? I don't think so.

I always got the feeling that the management was a bunch of d-bags exploiting a disease for their own benefit.

If I remember correctly, the story you are referring to ended up being a couple of riders who were ****ed because TT1 didn't pay their way to the Cascade Classic, a race not on TT1's calendar that the riders wanted to race in. TT1 didn't forbid them from riding... but didn't pay for their travel, provide support or pay entrance fees.

A couple of the riders sent some angry tweets about it... saying stuff like "One round trip ticket for Phil to go to France would have covered all the costs for the race."

If I remember correctly, the whole thing was started by Joe Papp to drive some traffic to his blog. Phil Southerland responded to cycling news questioning about it with this:

"We told our riders at the beginning of the year that our focus would be international expansion and getting ourselves aligned to the Giro [d'Italia] and to do a lot of the ASO races next year and that's what we've been doing," said Southerland. "We could have not done international racing and had the budget to do every criterium in the US this year, but we chose to invest our money doing the Tour of Morocco, Tour de Beauce, Vuelta Mexico Telmex, racing in China and the Tour of California, doing the races that would give us the opportunity to make that next step to Pro Continental and the Giro d'Italia.

"The comment about riders paying their way to race, that is true. Boise [Twilight Criterium] was not a team race, Cascade [Cycling Classic] was not a team race, so if riders wanted to go they were free to go, but they had to pay. However, [Tour of] Qinghai Lake was a team race and all expenses were paid for that race. Tour de Rio is a team race and all expenses were paid for that. We'll be at the Tour of Utah and we'll be at the national championships, both the criterium and road race. Our riders are getting their salaries, and we are absolutely secure for salaries through the end of the year."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-type-1-stepping-up-in-2011

 

[BroDeal]

If I remember correctly, the story you are referring to ended up being a couple of riders who were ****ed because TT1 didn't pay their way to the Cascade Classic, a race not on TT1's calendar that the riders wanted to race in. TT1 didn't forbid them from riding... but didn't pay for their travel, provide support or pay entrance fees...

I recall that not getting to do certain races was TT1's spin on the situation. The actual issue was riders being sent to the cycling equivalent of a sweatshop and team managers spending the team's money on themselves instead of the team. I came away thinking the team was a giant scam by the managers.

 

[kurtinsc]

I recall that not getting to do certain races was TT1's spin on the situation. The actual issue was riders being sent to the cycling equivalent of a sweatshop and team managers spending the team's money on themselves instead of the team. I came away thinking the team was a giant scam by the managers.

Do you have any links? I remember when Papp posted his stuff and it seemed to be entirely about races. They were complaining with tweets like "PS is in France while we're having to pay our own way to Cascade. It costs more for his travel then to pay for the race."

When it's not on the team's schedule though... I'm not sure what the problem is. Schmoozing ASO is probably a pretty improtant thing to do if you're hoping to get into some of their races.

I'd like to hear about what else they might have done though. All I can find with various searches is Papp's blog and Southerland's response on cyclingnews.

 

[BroDeal]

Do you have any links? I remember when Papp posted his stuff and it seemed to be entirely about races. They were complaining with tweets like "PS is in France while we're having to pay our own way to Cascade. It costs more for his travel then to pay for the race."

When it's not on the team's schedule though... I'm not sure what the problem is. Schmoozing ASO is probably a pretty improtant thing to do if you're hoping to get into some of their races.

I'd like to hear about what else they might have done though. All I can find with various searches is Papp's blog and Southerland's response on cyclingnews.

You would have to look up William Eynde. I don't think there is an English version of his story.

Wasn't this team in financial difficulty last year? Or was it the year before?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Do you have any links? I remember when Papp posted his stuff and it seemed to be entirely about races. They were complaining with tweets like "PS is in France while we're having to pay our own way to Cascade. It costs more for his travel then to pay for the race."

When it's not on the team's schedule though... I'm not sure what the problem is. Schmoozing ASO is probably a pretty improtant thing to do if you're hoping to get into some of their races.

I'd like to hear about what else they might have done though. All I can find with various searches is Papp's blog and Southerland's response on cyclingnews.

there was a belgian rider some years ago claiming they didn't even provide him with insuline, or any equipment to test his sugar level and he was on the verge of dieiing al couple of times. my memory may be tricking me a bit but it was really an extreme horror story. saying he was also verbally assaulted by teammanagers on a constant base. he fled home during the summer

 

[theyoungest]

there was a belgian rider some years ago claiming they didn't even provide him with insuline, or any equipment to test his sugar level and he was on the verge of dieiing al couple of times. my memory may be tricking me a bit but it was really an extreme horror story. saying he was also verbally assaulted by teammanagers on a constant base. he fled home during the summer

Yeah, that story was posted on this forum as well at the time.

edit: found it. English translation by Bala Verde:

This sounds like a horror story from hell. It's published in a Belgian newspaper, and relates the story of a Belgian cyclist (19) with diabetes, who got a pro contract with Team Type 1.

He returned disillusioned, after he noticed that the cycling Team Type 1 was a vehicle with which the involved diabetes drug companies tried to increase their exposure. Cycling was secondary to the individual life stories to be told by the diabetic riders, long photoshoots and filmsessions, from 5AM till midnight.

The first thing he was told to do after he arrived in LA, was to follow a media training course, and although he hadn't slept for 26 hrs, he wasn't allowed to go to a hotel and catch some sleep first. He didn't even get anything to eat, and when the training was over, he went to bed on an empty stomach. That was only day one. A couple of days later, he decided to go for a training ride, so that his team manager called him and yelled at him that he was suposed to be at another media training.

He complains about the food they served him (rather important for diabetics I presume), and he says that besides a good breakfast, lunch was skimpy and for dinner they often had to go out an find food themselves. When they got food, it was far from what is considered good 'cycling food', namely burritos or steak with chips. Because he ate so badly, he was afraid of injecting insuline, which could result in a hypo. He remembered one day in particular on which they rode a 1.5 hr crit and a 3.5 hr training ride, and he had gotten one whole powerbar.

Another day, when they checked into a hotel for a local crit, he would sleep in the same room as the 2 team directors. It was a room with two kingsize beds, but he was destined to sleep on the floor, which he accepted, because he thought it was normal. But the, when he put his bag on one of the beds, one of the directors, Phil Southerland, started yelling at him for having the nerve to put his bag on his bed and he made it abundantly clear to never touch any of his belongings anymore.

After a while they went to Tuscon, AZ, for training purposes. He hadn't gotten his medication/insuline and his own stash was running low. A number of riders, even ones who weren't competing, had everything they needed, but he, hadn't even received some of the basics. They always told him that he would get it 'in a week'. At one point he couldn't even test his values anymore, and although testing material was available, he wasn't allowed to touch it, denied by Phil, who even made fun of him. With only 3 days of insuline in the bag, he called his parents and after pressure from Belgium, he received insuline just in time.

After a couple of months, he had lost 8kg/16 pounds, he felt really weak. He didn't get any of the promised vitamins and he noticed that he was supposed to pay for everything by himself, including the vitamins, travel expenses, such as plane ticket's and taxi's. That's when he decided to 'flee'. He said he wanted to compete in a regional Belgian race which he had won last year. They allowed him to go, and he never came back.

 

[kurtinsc]

You would have to look up William Eynde. I don't think there is an English version of his story.

Wasn't this team in financial difficulty last year? Or was it the year before?

The only rumors I remember about financial difficulty were again related to not paying for riders to go to races not on the team schedule. Meanwhile they were sending guys to Mexico, South America and China and nobody had issues getting their salaries as far as I know.

As for Willem van den Eynde... it's a disturbing story but as translated it makes me wonder. He seems to talk about "immense hollywood productions" going on... and believing a team with a budget like TT1 (and nothing coming out that looks like it was produced by Hollywood) makes me wonder.

He basically says everyone else on the team was treated well, but he was treated like a dog. Everyone else had insulin pumps, insulin, test strips and CGM's, he didn't. Everyone else had good food... he had to scrounge. Everyone else was treated well... he was singled out for poor treatment. He doesn't even seem to accuse the team of doing these things to others... only to him.

While I suppose that's possible... it seems like a silly thing for a team looking to expand to Europe to do. Recruit a belgian rider with diabetes and a good story and intentionally treat him horribly... while treating everyone else fine. Then the stuff about Belgium being viewed as a third world country in the US.... what? Is that a stereotype of US people being that dumb? I mean honestly... even people who don't know where Belgium is on a map know it's in Europe and it's not some sort of developing nation without electricity or TV. That's just stupid.

I have no idea what happened, and he obviously wasn't happy. But his story is just... odd. It doesn't make much sense that the team would be "out to get him" as he describes, and many details seem to be some sort of stereotype of "bad american" behavior that have nothing to do with reality. Sleeping on the floor in a hotel room? Sure, I buy that. Having a DS with a temper and a superiority complex? I buy that as well. Having to buy your own food at times? Yeah, I doubt continental teams provide more then about 50% of the food for riders over a season. Having to do PR stuff? Yeah, seems normal.

Withholding food, insulin and test strips from a newly signed diabetic talent by a diabetic team? No... I just don't buy it. They provide CGM's, blood test kits and test strips to NON-DIABETIC riders on the team. They're sponsored by companies who make the stuff. Singling him out for abuse while treating everyone else well? Why on earth would they do that?

The whole thing doesn't make much sense. Maybe there's some sort of cultural difference here that's confusing me... but it just doesn't hold together.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I wouldn't believe a thing about it either.

 

[kurtinsc]

I guess the biggest thing that gets me is I simply can't imagine a team founded and run by two diabetics that (according to Willem) had a large supply of insulin on hand would refuse to give a diabetic rider insulin for any reason. I simply can't imagine anyone with direct knowledge of what that does to a diabetic taking an action like that.

I can buy a lot of it. I imagine much of it is common for a continental team. Sometimes you'll have to sleep on the floor, pay for some of your own food, have some long days of annoying PR work. I imagine annoying egotistical bosses are somewhat common too.

But not giving food to a diabetic who needs it? Not giving test strips? Not giving insulin? In a team run by diabetics who's entire PR push is about CONTROLLING diabetes?

It doesn't make sense. Maybe there was some communication issues involved. Maybe they thought he was handling his own control where he thought they'd be babysitting him through it.

Heck, I shattered an insulin vial at work while re-filling my pump and another type 1 diabetic I work with simply gave me one of his to use. It's not something any diabetic would play motivational games or mess around with. Insulin = life.

 

[BroDeal]

I guess the biggest thing that gets me is I simply can't imagine a team founded and run by two diabetics that (according to Willem) had a large supply of insulin on hand would refuse to give a diabetic rider insulin for any reason. I simply can't imagine anyone with direct knowledge of what that does to a diabetic taking an action like that.

Maybe the management sold the team's supply to pay for their excessive flights and hotels.

 

[kurtinsc]

Maybe the management sold the team's supply to pay for their excessive flights and hotels.

Again... you are talking about two people who are type 1 diabetics.

That would be like someone on dialysis selling another's dialysis equipment for profit. You aren't talking about selling spare bikes... you're talking about killing another person. That's what not giving a diabetic insulin is... it's murder. And while a regular person may not get that... EVERY type 1 diabetic does.

From what Willem said, they had huge stockpiles of insulin, test strips and other needed supplies. You'd expect this considering their team makeup and sponsors. They just wouldn't give it to him.

I can't buy that. You aren't talking about someone on an ego-trip or using a stupid form of motivation. It's not skimming off the top for personal profit. It's literally attempted murder.

Simply put... if any diabetic on the team or surrounding the team was aware he was out of insulin... they'd have given some of theirs to him, no questions. Same goes for testing supplies.

I have no doubt that it wasn't the experience he expected and that he had a horrible time with the team. I have no doubt the conditions weren't what he expected. But portions of his story just don't hold up to basic logic. You don't bring a foreign rider over to a team that had largely been american for publicity purposes... then attempt to kill them. It's bad publicity and really undermines what you are building the team on.

 

[TRDean]

Again... you are talking about two people who are type 1 diabetics.

That would be like someone on dialysis selling another's dialysis equipment for profit. You aren't talking about selling spare bikes... you're talking about killing another person. That's what not giving a diabetic insulin is... it's murder. And while a regular person may not get that... EVERY type 1 diabetic does.

From what Willem said, they had huge stockpiles of insulin, test strips and other needed supplies. You'd expect this considering their team makeup and sponsors. They just wouldn't give it to him.

I can't buy that. You aren't talking about someone on an ego-trip or using a stupid form of motivation. It's not skimming off the top for personal profit. It's literally attempted murder.

Simply put... if any diabetic on the team or surrounding the team was aware he was out of insulin... they'd have given some of theirs to him, no questions. Same goes for testing supplies.

I have no doubt that it wasn't the experience he expected and that he had a horrible time with the team. I have no doubt the conditions weren't what he expected. But portions of his story just don't hold up to basic logic. You don't bring a foreign rider over to a team that had largely been american for publicity purposes... then attempt to kill them. It's bad publicity and really undermines what you are building the team on.

Ultimately, I remember the rider not being able to adjust and this spin was put on it...but that was a couple years ago...does not really apply to today. Good read on Pez from an interview with Kocjan and he speaks very highly of the team...says it is better organized than the Italian teams.

 

[BroDeal]

You don't bring a foreign rider over to a team that had largely been american for publicity purposes... then attempt to kill them.

Now you are exaggerating. I think what Eynde described is a team where the primary purpose was to use a disease to suck money out of sponsors and racing was just the means to do so. I'll call this the Ann Kornikova ploy. Ostensibly Kornikova was a pro tennis player, but in reality she was a hawt model whose tennis career was more of a way to get modelling and endorsement contracts. This view of the team is backed up by other riders complaining that the team's money was being spent on management living the high life, forcing riders to pay out of their own pockets to actually race.

 

[kurtinsc]

Now you are exaggerating. I think what Eynde described is a team where the primary purpose was to use a disease to suck money out of sponsors and racing was just the means to do so. I'll call this the Ann Kornikova ploy. Ostensibly Kornikova was a pro tennis player, but in reality she was a hawt model whose tennis career was more of a way to get modelling and endorsement contracts. This view of the team is backed up by other riders complaining that the team's money was being spent on management living the high life, forcing riders to pay out of their own pockets to actually race.

No... I'm really not exagerating.

I have type 1 diabetes. Withholding insulin from a type-1 diabetic = death. Within a week you'll be in the emergency room needing serious medical care to avoid diabetic ketoacidosis and death from organ failure. If you don't get hospitalized at that point... you die.

Any type-1 diabetic realizes this... and Phil Southerland IS a type-1 diabetic. Withholding food from a diabetic who has already given insulin or is exercising heavily is pretty close to the same thing... it can lead to blood sugars dropping, insulin shock and coma... and if untreated death.

Someone with diabetes doing this to another diabetic is attempted murder. A non-diabetic like you might just not realize the importance of what they are doing... but that doesn't apply to the managers of Team Type 1.


Again... I don't think it makes sense for team type 1 to bring a rider over from europe for PR purposes then knowingly attempt to kill them. His description would mean they did exactly that.

 

[BroDeal]

No... I'm really not exagerating. blah blah blah

You are attributing what could be neglect to malice.