The benefits of a strong GT team?

[gavin]

Hi there,

first post (and a little nervous considering where nearly all other threads end up but here we go....)

Apologies if this is a bit too basic a question but I wondered about the benefits of a strong climbing team during a Grand Tour. There are obvious benefit when things go wrong (they can give you their bike, get you drinks, drag you back after a crash or split and shelter you from the wind) but when you are going up to what extent does a very strong team help?

Are there examples of a weaker rider winning just because their team is stronger? You see a team like Sky set a pace on the front as the the gradient increases which may have the effect of other contenders losing their lieutenants but does it make that much impact? If, for example, Contador is on his own he's still using the same energy as Froome who may have Thomas/Landa at full gas on the front. I guess that would help Froome dictate when he wanted to make his attack and it could dissuade other attacks but in the end the stronger rider would win.

It seems that if you are the strongest rider you should win, regardless of your team mates if (and it's a very big if) things don't go wrong.

It's a genuine question out of interest as I love the sport and want to keep learning.

 

[DFA123]

Hi there,

first post (and a little nervous considering where nearly all other threads end up but here we go....)

Apologies if this is a bit too basic a question but I wondered about the benefits of a strong climbing team during a Grand Tour. There are obvious benefit when things go wrong (they can give you their bike, get you drinks, drag you back after a crash or split and shelter you from the wind) but when you are going up to what extent does a very strong team help?

Are there examples of a weaker rider winning just because their team is stronger? You see a team like Sky set a pace on the front as the the gradient increases which may have the effect of other contenders losing their lieutenants but does it make that much impact? If, for example, Contador is on his own he's still using the same energy as Froome who may have Thomas/Landa at full gas on the front. I guess that would help Froome dictate when he wanted to make his attack and it could dissuade other attacks but in the end the stronger rider would win.

It seems that if you are the strongest rider you should win, regardless of your team mates if (and it's a very big if) things don't go wrong.

It's a genuine question out of interest as I love the sport and want to keep learning.

I think one of the biggest advantages of having a strong team inthe mountains is that you can dictate the pace. On a strong team like Sky, for example; if Froome is feeling good he will tell them to keep a really high pace and see if any of his rivals are struggling. If he's having a bad day, he can tell his team to knock it off a bit. If a rider with a weak team is feeling strong - he basically has to put his nose into the wind much earlier if he wants to take advantage of it. Likewise, he can't control the pace and limit his losses when he's not feeling good.

Another thing that riders can do is use their team to make sure the climb is being ridden to their strengths. Armstrong used to do this all the time, getting his team to change up the pace a lot, because he knew it would unsettle Ullrich if he couldn't ride in a steady rhythm. Sky did the opposite when Wiggins won; riding a sustained very high tempo - basically riding everyone off their wheel with no big accelerations.

With a weak team, you basically have to do everything yourself if you want to dictate the tempo; or you're at the mercy of the stronger teams.

 

[whittashau]

I think with how strong Sky has become you'll see a couple of their domestiques working hard on one mountain stage, and then resting during the next because they'll have equally strong domestiques that did little the day before. I think this will allow their team to stay fresh and will mean they'll be able to push a crazy pace whenever Froome and co see fit.

 

[Breh]

The Risoul stage from a couple of days ago in the Giro is an example of how a strong team can benefit your leader in mountain stages.
Giro 2015 was a great example of how an unbelievably strong team won't win you a GT if your leader isn't stronger than his main opponent.
The pacing can be a factor where a strong team is usefull and maybe it's important in the riders head but ultimately the stronger climber will finish first. So I do not think having an amazing mountain train is all that important.
Despite fielding arguably the strongest GT teams over the past 5years, Team Sky have only won 3GT's out of 18.


That's just my opinion ofcourse, you'll find that alot of people on this forum will disagree with me.

 

[SlickMongoose]

You only have to watch last year's tour to see the benefits of a strong team. On almost every stage Froome had important help from his team. It's important for positioning going into the climbs, help if your rivals attack or you have a mechanical, setting pace, all sorts of things.

Stannard and Thomas got him across the gap in the stage 2 crosswinds, Thomas got him into a great position up the Mur. Thomas, Rowe & Stannard kept him safe on the cobbles, Porte and Thomas smashed the field to pieces up PSM, Thomas prevented Froome's rivals attacking on Plateau de Beille, Poels was strong in stage 19 when Thomas cracked, and Poels and Porte saved the day on Alpe d'Huez.

Their strength in depth meant that individual riders could always have a bad day, but other riders would step up. With a weaker team Froome wouldn't have won that tour.

 

[red zone]

having a strong team will tip the balance between riders that are close in strength , it can't overcome having a clearly weaker leader but the benefits shouldn't be underestimated

Vuelta '15 showed the difference between Froome looking almost unbeatable with a dominate team to looking very vulnerable while being beaten by Contador with a typical GC team .

Having teammates that can set the pace and chase down multiple attacks while allowing their leader to pick his spots when to attack is a huge advantage and the only reason Wiggins won and greatly aided Froome's TDF wins .

 

[IndianCyclist]

A strong team can help
-the leader conserve energy by bringing drinks & carrying extra food late in the race.
- prevent gaps in crosswinds or take gaps on rivals
- On mechanical can pace back the leader to the bunch without much effort.
- pace leader to minimize time gaps when leader is weak.
- Allow a leader & team to plan & strategise his attack.

 

[TMP402]

Re:

Despite fielding arguably the strongest GT teams over the past 5years, Team Sky have only won 3GT's out of 18.

Since they simply don't apply their Tour tactics at the Giro or Vuelta, it's not out of 18 in my opinion.

 

[Pricey_sky]

ok I will be polite and be the first to say welcome to the forum,

We have seen in the Giro just a few days ago what the negative implications are when your team is weak. If kruijswijk had 1 very strong mountain dom with him he would not have lost anywhere near as much time as he did when crashing. Unfortunately for him when they went over the summit of Agnello his team mates were minutes behind. Of course they should have put someone in the break, but then that is strategy and not necessarily team strength.

As others have said when your feeling well, as Froome did on the first mountain stage of the Tours in 2013 and 15, your team can drill it on the front and potentially create huge gaps amongst rivals.

Or lets say Contador goes ballistic and tries an attack 70km's out as he needs to claw back loads of time. A strong team can pace their contender for most of that distance, keeping the gap at a reasonable amount before the leader has to respond near the end, of course it could still come down to how strong a teams GC guy is, but a strong team can reduce the deficit.

 

[hrotha]

Re:

Giro 2015 was a great example of how an unbelievably strong team won't win you a GT if your leader isn't stronger than his main opponent.

More like how an unbelievably strong team won't win you a GT if you don't use it properly, with that goal in mind. Astana simply rode for the podium for three weeks, then made one half-arsed attempt to win the race on the last day. Unsurprisingly, it was too little, too late.

 

[gavin]

Thanks very much for all your replies. Very interesting. It does sum up my thoughts about a strong team which is:
1. It's essential when things go wrong
2. A weak leader won't win just because he has a strong team
3. However, a strong team puts rivals under pressure. If they sense weakness they'll put the hammer down. They can pace the leader if there is sudden attacks and essentially tips the balance where two leaders are at the same level.

Thank you

 

[PremierAndrew]

Also, if you have a mechanical, other riders will always be closer to you than the team car.

Therefore, if you have a weak team, are isolated, and have a mechanical, you're going to lose a lot of time as you need to wait for your team car to arrive. If, however, you have a strong team, and you still have teammates with you, they can give you their wheel/bike, and if the bike is uncomfortable due to a different size, at least you can get going and not stay absolutely stationary whilst waiting for the team car

 

[saganftw]

look no further than few days ago,with stronger team (not even whole team just one or two guys) kruiswijk would have won the giro even with crash

 

[jmdirt]

I'll save repeating the list that others have already posted above, but I think that having a strong climbing team is over rated if nothing goes wrong. You're either strong enough to ride with the leaders or you aren't. Very often the battle end of the platoon is man vs. man anyway. It's when things go wrong (flat, mechanical, crash, bonk...) that a strong helper can make a difference.

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

look no further than few days ago,with stronger team (not even whole team just one or two guys) kruiswijk MIGHT have won the giro even with crash

I edited that for you.

 

[barmaher]

If you have a strong team and a GC rival attacks, he can set a pace at the front of the favourites group to pace you back to an attack.

Like Thomas, Poels and Porte did in the Tour de France last year.

And their very presence discourages such attacks.