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Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

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that did attract attention to Vingo's wattage but couldn't remotely show how tactically and skillfully he rode. That was a fun revelation.
I was impressed with how he can descent so well, and that is something that he improved in the last 2 years. I remember that he dropped pogacar on ventoux in 2021 and then he was caught in the descent.

He is improving a lot year after year, even he is 26(almost 27) and not 22. Maybe he is improving faster than a lot of riders with 21/22 years even if he is more old. There's a lot of circunstances that play in the fact that some riders develop more later tha others.

Quintana developed in a very young age, but he stagnated with 26/27 years.
 
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You probably haven't studied what it takes to be a World and Olympic pursuit champion....it makes you a supreme TTer. One that could do efforts at max, back to back to back. He also won titles in Scratch racing and probably killed it in Points racing. That would make him a seriously skillled and tactically gifted sprinter; particularly after very hard efforts. He also won the Junior Paris Roubaix so there's the Hardman credentials for you.
Fixed gear racing is a very serious test of limits due to no gear relief. You need to be strong enough to accelerate from slower speeds in the gear choice you plan to sprint at 40mph. The repeat efforts are great for hill thresholds. So Gerraint had shown every quality needed to be a GT winner but was channeled into the Olympic medal hunt and won those, too. Lack of opportunity doesn't indicate lack of ability.
Remco would be the first to acknowledge that his family connections assisted nearly every step of his progression. Unfortunately they needed to step aside and let him grow as an individual athlete and IMO he's made that move.

Roglic is an irrelevant comparison and only on your list to denigrate his abilities I would bet. He is better than Remco in GTs now and can't be 21 again so no point in comparison.
Jonas is now the hero of Denmark but hadn't earned the pro ride to put him in GT supremacy.
Remco was anointed the Boy King of his neighborhood so his "legacy" was to be the TdF winner Belgium still is desperate for. Now his biggest supporters are hopefully embracing his potential as a GT winner. Not the GT winner. That's good. But to suggest anyone other than say, Lemond showed they could win the TdF at 21 is far from serious.
Being a world class TPer can mean you’re a world class TTer but it certainly doesn’t make you one or even somewhat likely to become one. Really depends how the rider is delivering the power in TP physiologically. For man 1-2 very very unlikely that rider will be an elite TTer as they’re usually extremely anaerobically strong, man 3-4 can have riders with massive thresholds relative to their CdA and good anaerobic power such as your Ganna’s, Wiggins, Hayter but equally can have dudes that have reasonable thresholds and massive anaerobic power such as Rodenberg, Milan, Vernon. In short the number of TPers who have the physiology to be elite TTers is far far fewer than those that don’t. Basically just a very small subsection of man 3-4 riders.
 
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Being a world class TPer can mean you’re a world class TTer but it certainly doesn’t make you one or even somewhat likely to become one. Really depends how the rider is delivering the power in TP physiologically. For man 1-2 very very unlikely that rider will be an elite TTer as they’re usually extremely anaerobically strong, man 3-4 can have riders with massive thresholds relative to their CdA and good anaerobic power such as your Ganna’s, Wiggins, Hayter but equally can have dudes that have reasonable thresholds and massive anaerobic power such as Rodenberg, Milan, Vernon. In short the number of TPers who have the physiology to be elite TTers is far far fewer than those that don’t. Basically just a very small subsection of man 3-4 riders.
That's putting things to a very fine point. Speaking of GT; he was a good TT, Scratch, Points and all around rider. Maybe a few British teams narrowed the attributes as finely as you portray them, but Britain had almost all of their cycling talent dedicated to Olympic track goals. A good IPursuiter should be able to do just as well in TTs if they train for it.
The whole discussion began with performances that could indicate a GT winner at an early age.
 
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That's putting things to a very fine point. Speaking of GT; he was a good TT, Scratch, Points and all around rider. Maybe a few British teams narrowed the attributes as finely as you portray them, but Britain had almost all of their cycling talent dedicated to Olympic track goals. A good IPursuiter should be able to do just as well in TTs if they train for it.
The whole discussion began with performances that could indicate a GT winner at an early age.
Sure G was clearly talented but what you said was just a pretty massive misrepresentation of TP. Without understanding the physiological demands of TP you could probably literally just look at a couple different TP teams and understand that the physiology of the athletes in a team varies pretty massively.

Also every team at the top level (and most at the low level) understands that more explosive riders go man 1-2 and the less explosive ones go man 3-4. It’s just a simple result of how hard the riders have to start. They get less gravity assistance, each man you go back you can drop 1 bike length and the further towards the front you are the sooner you have to do a big effort after the start.
 
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Sure G was clearly talented but what you said was just a pretty massive misrepresentation of TP. Without understanding the physiological demands of TP you could probably literally just look at a couple different TP teams and understand that the physiology of the athletes in a team varies pretty massively.

Also every team at the top level (and most at the low level) understands that more explosive riders go man 1-2 and the less explosive ones go man 3-4. It’s just a simple result of how hard the riders have to start. They get less gravity assistance, each man you go back you can drop 1 bike length and the further towards the front you are the sooner you have to do a big effort after the start.
I understand it just fine. I've been part of a Masters Nat Champ TP and podium for Senior Nat Champ team. Granted it wasn't Worlds but the cross section was valid. The Nat Champ team lead rider had a Masters Worlds TT title, the second had 3 Master Worlds Pursuits titles. Us final guys never spent the money to go Worlds. They all had to be fast and the last rider to pull had to take a full lap because #4 rider got gapped when we caught the other team and finished the last laps with 3.
All of those guys could climb and TT but, to my prior point; we trained for both and contested everything from crits to stage races. You'd be a lonely racer if all you were was a TT specialist. Remco would probably be superior in all of these things, save for Match track sprinting.
 
I understand it just fine. I've been part of a Masters Nat Champ TP and podium for Senior Nat Champ team. Granted it wasn't Worlds but the cross section was valid. The Nat Champ team lead rider had a Masters Worlds TT title, the second had 3 Master Worlds Pursuits titles. Us final guys never spent the money to go Worlds. They all had to be fast and the last rider to pull had to take a full lap because #4 rider got gapped when we caught the other team and finished the last laps with 3.
All of those guys could climb and TT but, to my prior point; we trained for both and contested everything from crits to stage races. You'd be a lonely racer if all you were was a TT specialist. Remco would probably be superior in all of these things, save for Match track sprinting.
Amateur/masters is a bit different, more related to money and time you can commit to training compared to the level of world class riders. This has gone on long enough but to reiterate if you look at man 1-2 riders they commonly have FTP on the level of WT riders who are 55KG soaking wet while being taller and miles heavier, with nicknames like “The Fridge”. They ain’t achieving anything in a WT TT, having much more in common with kilo specialists than WT TTers, with former track sprinters even being used as man 1 riders in multiple nations.

Bringing it back to G you can kinda see all of this when you compare his man 1 (Ed Clancy) to him in the 2008 and 2012 teams. Even in much heavier track shape he was much bigger than him or Wiggins. He also never got close to being elite in top level TTing like 3 of the 4 men in the 2012 squad.
 
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Amateur/masters is a bit different, more related to money and time you can commit to training compared to the level of world class riders. This has gone on long enough but to reiterate if you look at man 1-2 riders they commonly have FTP on the level of WT riders who are 55KG soaking wet while being taller and miles heavier, with nicknames like “The Fridge”. They ain’t achieving anything in a WT TT, having much more in common with kilo specialists than WT TTers, with former track sprinters even being used as man 1 riders in multiple nations.

Bringing it back to G you can kinda see all of this when you compare his man 1 (Ed Clancy) to him in the 2008 and 2012 teams. Even in much heavier track shape he was much bigger than him or Wiggins. He also never got close to being elite in top level TTing like 3 of the 4 men in the 2012 squad.
And so Gerraints track, WC and Olympic medals don't suggest anything about Grand Tour capabilities? That's the question; not what the 220lb kilo rider who started first leg of a TP could do. What the guys that rode the distance could do.

Of course Masters are different; they seldom have anything but serious endurance guys who also happen to be TT guys because they'd be bored as TT or track specialists; which is totally irrelevant to the discussion on GTs history. You suggested: Without understanding the physiological demands of TP you could probably literally just look at a couple different TP teams and understand that the physiology of the athletes in a team varies pretty massively.
We're talking in the Remco thread about the rarity of early indicators of Grand Tour talent. Remco, Egan, Lemond....a few that showed great talent young.
 
And so Gerraints track, WC and Olympic medals don't suggest anything about Grand Tour capabilities? That's the question; not what the 220lb kilo rider who started first leg of a TP could do. What the guys that rode the distance could do.

Of course Masters are different; they seldom have anything but serious endurance guys who also happen to be TT guys because they'd be bored as TT or track specialists; which is totally irrelevant to the discussion on GTs history. You suggested: Without understanding the physiological demands of TP you could probably literally just look at a couple different TP teams and understand that the physiology of the athletes in a team varies pretty massively.
We're talking in the Remco thread about the rarity of early indicators of Grand Tour talent. Remco, Egan, Lemond....a few that showed great talent young.
...Pog
 
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And so Gerraints track, WC and Olympic medals don't suggest anything about Grand Tour capabilities? That's the question; not what the 220lb kilo rider who started first leg of a TP could do. What the guys that rode the distance could do.

Of course Masters are different; they seldom have anything but serious endurance guys who also happen to be TT guys because they'd be bored as TT or track specialists; which is totally irrelevant to the discussion on GTs history. You suggested: Without understanding the physiological demands of TP you could probably literally just look at a couple different TP teams and understand that the physiology of the athletes in a team varies pretty massively.
We're talking in the Remco thread about the rarity of early indicators of Grand Tour talent. Remco, Egan, Lemond....a few that showed great talent young.
No, I would say the track results don't necessarily show anything about his potential for GT GC considering we can see that the majority of man 3-4 TP riders have basically zero talent for that. The top riders in the comparable role to G right now are: Ganna, Milan, Hayter, Bigham, Rodenberg, Larsen, Gate and Sexton. Maybe Hayter has potential (I don't really believe it tbh) but the rest sure don't.
 
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That's putting things to a very fine point. Speaking of GT; he was a good TT, Scratch, Points and all around rider. Maybe a few British teams narrowed the attributes as finely as you portray them, but Britain had almost all of their cycling talent dedicated to Olympic track goals. A good IPursuiter should be able to do just as well in TTs if they train for it.
The whole discussion began with performances that could indicate a GT winner at an early age.
massive hindsight bias here.

So which 22 year old track pursuiter are you currently tipping to win his first TDF in 2032?
 
No, I would say the track results don't necessarily show anything about his potential for GT GC considering we can see that the majority of man 3-4 TP riders have basically zero talent for that. The top riders in the comparable role to G right now are: Ganna, Milan, Hayter, Bigham, Rodenberg, Larsen, Gate and Sexton. Maybe Hayter has potential (I don't really believe it tbh) but the rest sure don't.
You want to bracket him as a trailer in the TP when he also could win World Class points and Scratch races. A very narrow part of his qualifications at a young age. That's in the realm of a WC Cyclocrosser in many ways.
 
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You want to bracket him as a trailer in the TP when he also could win World Class points and Scratch races. A very narrow part of his qualifications at a young age. That's in the realm of a WC Cyclocrosser in many ways.
I might completely misunderstand this discussion (and if I’m doing so I’m apologizing) , but are you here indicating that being a WC cyclocrosser is (could be) also a great indicator on future GT success?
 
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I might completely misunderstand this discussion (and if I’m doing so I’m apologizing) , but are you here indicating that being a WC cyclocrosser is (could be) also a great indicator on future GT success?
How dare I....that would be madness.
Cadel Evans and Tom Pidcock would be forced to agree....Nothing is an indicator unless it happens. Being a successful GT rider isn't the first thing anyone trained for. Remco was a roundballer first, no?
 
How dare I....that would be madness.
Cadel Evans and Tom Pidcock would be forced to agree....
Evans did mountain bike and not cyclocross, didn’t he? He’s definitely not a Cyclocross World Champion at elite level.

Pidcock is a promising rider also in GTs, but still a lot to prove.

Have any of the cyclocross WC since Jean Robic actually won a GT? Or even been on the podium? De Vlaeminck has a 4th in the Giro, any better?

The cyclocross WC has almost 75 years of history and basically no one that ever won a medal there have any GT results to talk about.
 
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Evans did mountain bike and not cyclocross, didn’t he? He’s definitely not a Cyclocross World Champion at elite level.

Pidcock is a promising rider also in GTs, but still a lot to prove.

Have any of the cyclocross WC since Jean Robic actually won a GT? Or even been on the podium? De Vlaeminck has a 4th in the Giro, any better?

The cyclocross WC has almost 75 years of history and basically no one that ever won a medal there have any GT results to talk about.
Imagine Vingegaard participating at Namur. Just crushing it and completely riding away from Wout and Mathieu on the muddy camber section.
 

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