The revenge of Rasmussen ...

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Apr 20, 2012
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Franklin said:
There is at least one link with Epo (Draaijer).
I object to this but I will do this in Dutch and per PM.
Franklin said:
Had they not had the intralipid affair they certainly would have been the first big Epo team. Of that I have no doubt at all.
PDM became the team of Virenque, and yet they were not the prime EPO boys, dottore Rijckaert was not the bad man as projected by the mainstream media.
Franklin said:
It's what makes Breukink a special case. Considering his earlier performances in the Giro he clearly was not someone made by Epo and yet his joining PDM always made me wonder about 1990. The best we can say is that he didn't really transform and that he did podium in the Giro twice pre-epo.
Breukink was the real deal, untill he saw what was possible on PDM at the 1988 Tour. Mediocre riders like Theunissen winning on bread and butter?
Franklin said:
Breukink, Lemond, Mottet, Indurain, they are the enigma of that era... when did Epo start to show up? GL/CM the clean side, EB the question mark, and MI the adopter... but one who surely was recognized as a GT thoroughbred years before Epo hit the peloton.
Indurain was a talent at TT, was able to climb a mountain, untill Luz Ardiden 1990 where he followed LeMond without breathing, he never showed top class in the mountains:
EPO/Padilla!
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Franklin said:
Where did I say Breukink joined because of the doping? :confused: Take a few deep breaths and read a post before feeling compelled to answer.

I found you are on a crusade on clinic posters, but it would be nice if you read my posts. Also, you could take a cue out of my book and focus on verifyable data ;)
I was talking in general. my bad for not making it clear enough. that's why I said "clinic would have you believe"
 
Sep 12, 2012
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Frosty said:
Guerini was faster than some on the list. Have seen times of 41, 42 minutes quoted before.

The list is hardly exhaustive. In 2004, a total of roughly 153 riders beat Lemond and Hinault's given time for 2006. Ok, so it was a time trial but even so this shows that that there are some times missing. In 2004, Gonzalez, Guerini, Karpets, Basso and Moncoutie produced sub 40 minute times. (These are all calculated by assuming that every rider did the c. 1km bit of the TT on the flat before alpe d'huez in the same time as Armstrong. In reality most would have taken a few seconds longer than Armstrong but this would mean that their alpe d'huez deficit was less than shown below)

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=results/stage16
Thanks - I have made the appropriate changes.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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snackattack said:
more trouble for the bank i.o.u. blanco

Another rider came out of the woodwork today, who also is to testify that big Theo de R was sitting next to chicken when the whereabouts word was spread.

In Dutch - Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 |17:54pm. > http://nos.nl/artikel/457976-weer-belastende-verklaring-rabobank.html
thanks.
man, Peter Luttenberger a doper. Who'd have guessed.
That's one way to not be forgotten. Otherwise who'd have remembered this bloke ever existed?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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snackattack said:
more trouble for the bank i.o.u. blanco

Another rider came out of the woodwork today, who also is to testify that big Theo de R was sitting next to chicken when the whereabouts word was spread.

In Dutch - Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 |17:54pm. > http://nos.nl/artikel/457976-weer-belastende-verklaring-rabobank.html
This is a very nice testimony, by the way. Lovely details.

Again Leinders heavily implicated.
Nothing to see here, Sky fanboys.

Do we have ideas who this is?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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"De eerste keer dat ik bij Geert Leinders kwam, vertelde hij me dat ik in twee jaar tijd naturel naar een hoog niveau zou worden gebracht. Daarna zouden we gaan pieken. Toen ik vroeg wat hij daarmee bedoelde, antwoordde Leinders: 'daar kom ik nog wel op terug'. Ik wist meteen dat ik daar nooit aan zou meedoen. Ik dacht - heel naïef - dat ik het op talent zou redden, maar dat bleek een misvatting."
"the first time I came to Geert Leinders, he told me in two years time my hematocrit would be brought to natural levels. After that we were going to peak. When I asked him what he meant by that, he said: "I'll get back to you about that". I knew immediately I wouldn't do that kind of thing. I was naive and thought I'd make it on talent, but I was wrong."
 
snackattack said:
more trouble for the bank i.o.u. blanco

Another rider came out of the woodwork today, who also is to testify that big Theo de R was sitting next to chicken when the whereabouts word was spread.

In Dutch - Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 |17:54pm. > http://nos.nl/artikel/457976-weer-belastende-verklaring-rabobank.html
Oh oh, the classic case. First earn your place as a clean rider, then you get on the program. Leinders may have actively kept the new signups truly clean, to gauge their "true" potential.
Funny anecdote on Boogerd freaking out over his 37 Hct before a training camp, and Leinders telling him it will all be OK.
In Dutch racing, Boogerd is notorious for having a really tiny engine. I once blew right by him in a beach race myself, out of season obviously. Yet in some classics, we've seen him jump away from a leading group already going around at Champs Elisees speeds. Not normal.
Pathetic that Boogerd refuses openly to be a scapegoat. Other Rabo riders should go out and admit stufff before he's to be expected to. So, they are testifying now. That good enough for Mr. Clean Teeth? Imagine lifting your Hct from a natural 37 to 49 or so. When you're already a somewhat decent national racer (I was in my little way). Soooo much more oxygen uptake... Really, it's difficult to imagine for me. To ride so close to your max output for so long. And my max output was always my strong point. In MTB, I was a bit of a one lap miracle. If I could do that for a few more laps, I'd not need a real job. I hope the dirty *******s that stole our results are publically disgraced. Yeah, they deserve it.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Cloxxki said:
Oh oh, the callsic case. First earn your place as a clean rider, then you get on the program. Leinders may have actively kept the new signups truly clean, to gauge their "true" potential.
Funny anecdote on Boogerd freaking out over his 37 Hct before a training camp, and Leinders telling him it will all be OK.
In Dutch racing, Boogerd is notorious for having a really tiny engine. I once blew right by him in a beach race myself, out of season obviously. Yet in some classics, we've seen him jump away from a leading group already going around at Champs Elisees speeds. Not normal.
Pathetic that Boogerd refuses openly to be a scapegoat. Other Rabo riders should go out and admit stufff before he's to be expected to. So, they are testifying now. That good enough for Mr. Clean Teeth? Imagine lifting your Hct from a natural 37 to 49 or so. When you're already a somewhat decent national racer (I was in my little way). Soooo much more oxygen uptake... Really, it's difficult to imagine for me. To ride so close to your max output for so long. And my max output was always my strong point. In MTB, I was a bit of a one lap miracle. If I could do that for a few more laps, I'd not need a real job. I hope the dirty *******s that stole our results are publically disgraced. Yeah, they deserve it.
interesting.

any idea on who the whistleblower is?
 
sniper said:
any idea on who the whistleblower is?
Whistleblower or called to testify under oath?

Anyway, it would be a clean Rabo rider. Naive. Your guess is as good as mine.
Sounds like someone who failed to come through after the "time to develop" the team granted him. I've seen some of those but would not know how to place them on a timeline.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Cloxxki said:
Whistleblower or called to testify under oath?

Anyway, it would be a clean Rabo rider. Naive. Your guess is as good as mine.
Sounds like someone who failed to come through after the "time to develop" the team granted him. I've seen some of those but would not know how to place them on a timeline.
Whistleblower or called to testify under oath?
testified under oath, yes, but voluntarily speaks to the NOS about it.

Not sure if he was clean. started out clean, sure, but not sure if he stayed clean.
Ik snapte er op dat moment niks van, maar later natuurlijk wel."
Ik dacht - heel naïef - dat ik het op talent zou redden, maar dat bleek een misvatting."
both these statements can (but need not) be taken to suggest he later turned to doping himself.

-by the way, he must have been with Rabo still in 2007, as he's apparently testifying wrt the whereabouts issue.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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if I'm not mistaken, it could be anyone of these four:

moerenhout
van heeswijk
van bon
boven

all four were part of Rabobank in 1998 and 2007.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
I am quite confident it is Hiemstra, nice ladd. Not overly talented so he shouldn't have been on the program. Too
bad those whistleblowers whon't go public.
ok, but according to snackattack this witness is spilling beans on the whereabouts issue from 2007. Could that be hiemstra?
 
Apr 20, 2012
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sniper said:
ok, but according to snackattack this witness is spilling beans on the whereabouts issue from 2007. Could that be hiemstra?
Guess snackattack isn't a native Dutch speaer. The NOS site is citing a case of Boogerd having a hematocrit of 37 while Leinders i assuring it will be all right, with de Rooij sitting next to them.

Textbook stuff, but, when will those guys be nonimous?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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lovely to see two of cycling's blackest sheep, Landis and Rasmussen, shake the tree of cycling.
 
sniper said:
lovely to see two of cycling's blackest sheep, Landis and Rasmussen, shake the tree of cycling.
Landis and Rasmussen are perfect examples of what pro cycling actually is. Weasels who cheat like crazy, act all entitled when they get caught, then scramble after whatever money they can shake down from the sport.

Cycling's best analog is pro boxing.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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MarkvW said:
Landis and Rasmussen are perfect examples of what pro cycling actually is. Weasels who cheat like crazy, act all entitled when they get caught, then scramble after whatever money they can shake down from the sport.

Cycling's best analog is pro boxing.
You really are too kind. And right.

But, when Rasmussen would spill some beans it would be very interesting. Lets go fishing.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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sniper said:
if I'm not mistaken, it could be anyone of these four:

moerenhout
van heeswijk
van bon
boven

all four were part of Rabobank in 1998 and 2007.
Nowhere do they mention the Rasmussen case in this story... this particular rider probably wasn't even on the team in 2007.
 
May 28, 2012
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sniper said:
"the first time I came to Geert Leinders, he told me in two years time my hematocrit would be brought to natural levels. After that we were going to peak. When I asked him what he meant by that, he said: "I'll get back to you about that". I knew immediately I wouldn't do that kind of thing. I was naive and thought I'd make it on talent, but I was wrong."
He didn't mention anything expicitly about blood doping ofc. You just filled in the blanks that leinders was going to give him EPO, of course this anon felt he couldn't do that, such a sweet kid as he probably is not wanting to win with help of PED's. :rolleyes:

This guy's just another ******bag who's too afraid to step out of the shadow scared of their old team mates, nothing special. But of course Dutch media publish everything that could hurt Rabobank. It looks like the newspapers and journalists are as bitter about following the Rabo team in vain every time they failed at le Tour over the last decade, as these anonimous guys on the phone with NOS are. So it feels right for the media to denigrate them.

However such 'revelations' of a doping program is never going to do anything to Boogerd/Leinders/Rasmussen/rest of Rabo unless these 'big' men talk themselves. We want evidence, names, dates, paperwork, bank registers if we are to prove something was in fact going on at the time, not an anonimous guy with good memory but without the guts to tell the whole story.

My only hope to make this anti-Rabo climate better is that more teams will follow. Or else we'll be naming Lance Armstrong and 'total dominator' Boogerd as the biggest frauds of the EPO era. A shame that would be...
 
May 26, 2010
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MarkvW said:
Landis and Rasmussen are perfect examples of what pro cycling actually is. Weasels who cheat like crazy, act all entitled when they get caught, then scramble after whatever money they can shake down from the sport.

Cycling's best analog is pro boxing.
What money is Landis shaking down? Landis aked for a team place and when he didn't get it spilled the beans. Since then I have not read he is shaking down the sport!

Rasmussen yes is taking the fight to the courts and using his knowledge of Rabo doping for financial gain. But he is not suing cycling.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Pentacycle said:
He didn't mention anything expicitly about blood doping ofc. You just filled in the blanks that leinders was going to give him EPO, of course this anon felt he couldn't do that, such a sweet kid as he probably is not wanting to win with help of PED's. :rolleyes:

This guy's just another ******bag who's too afraid to step out of the shadow scared of their old team mates, nothing special. But of course Dutch media publish everything that could hurt Rabobank. It looks like the newspapers and journalists are as bitter about following the Rabo team in vain every time they failed at le Tour over the last decade, as these anonimous guys on the phone with NOS are. So it feels right for the media to denigrate them.

However such 'revelations' of a doping program is never going to do anything to Boogerd/Leinders/Rasmussen/rest of Rabo unless these 'big' men talk themselves. We want evidence, names, dates, paperwork, bank registers if we are to prove something was in fact going on at the time, not an anonimous guy with good memory but without the guts to tell the whole story.

My only hope to make this anti-Rabo climate better is that more teams will follow. Or else we'll be naming Lance Armstrong and 'total dominator' Boogerd as the biggest frauds of the EPO era. A shame that would be...
A typical Dutch omerta boy.''Rabo was bad but others were too!''

Stop the wining act, human plasma will come out. Ur hero Boogey will be exposed.
Benotti69 said:
What money is Landis shaking down? Landis aked for a team place and when he didn't get it spilled the beans. Since then I have not read he is shaking down the sport!

Rasmussen yes is taking the fight to the courts and using his knowledge of Rabo doping for financial gain. But he is not suing cycling.
Landis is an a@@ too.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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MarkvW said:
Landis and Rasmussen are perfect examples of what pro cycling actually is. Weasels who cheat like crazy, act all entitled when they get caught, then scramble after whatever money they can shake down from the sport.

Cycling's best analog is pro boxing.
Calling him a weasel is a rather poor judgement.
Landis didn't act all entitled when he got caught.
He panicked, entered in depression, started drinking, god knows what else.
Here was someone of whom we can honestly say "he did what everybody else did", namely dope to race faster.
No Lance techniques.
A troubled but genuine type of guy in all respects.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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Pentacycle said:
He didn't mention anything expicitly about blood doping ofc. You just filled in the blanks that leinders was going to give him EPO, of course this anon felt he couldn't do that, such a sweet kid as he probably is not wanting to win with help of PED's. :rolleyes:

This guy's just another ******bag who's too afraid to step out of the shadow scared of their old team mates, nothing special. But of course Dutch media publish everything that could hurt Rabobank. It looks like the newspapers and journalists are as bitter about following the Rabo team in vain every time they failed at le Tour over the last decade, as these anonimous guys on the phone with NOS are. So it feels right for the media to denigrate them.

However such 'revelations' of a doping program is never going to do anything to Boogerd/Leinders/Rasmussen/rest of Rabo unless these 'big' men talk themselves. We want evidence, names, dates, paperwork, bank registers if we are to prove something was in fact going on at the time, not an anonimous guy with good memory but without the guts to tell the whole story.

My only hope to make this anti-Rabo climate better is that more teams will follow. Or else we'll be naming Lance Armstrong and 'total dominator' Boogerd as the biggest frauds of the EPO era. A shame that would be...
I just hope that this will lead to the disappearance of cycling from Dutch television... that way we won't have to deal with such a load of cr.p from the likes of Smeets, Ducrot/Dijkstra, Tour du Jour, etc. anymore.
 

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