Total Body Hemoglobin

[BigBoat]

Why WONT the UCI do total body hemoglobin testing? The tech has been there since the 1970s for god sakes! C02 inhalation...

What I REALLY dont get is >>> why the cycling world will not DEMAND power files and total body hemoglobins from the top riders taken by an independent source. Thats all you need--and 85% of the gains they make are gone.

It is NOT rocket science, a 3rd grader could see the spike in power on the monthly taken FTP numbers (all out 1-hour sustainable power) when they have taken an autologous blood 'refill' for a super important time trial stage or mountain stage.

I am NOT saying sanction somebody based on their power files alone >>> BUT its a picture any clean champion of the sport would proudly display.

 

[BroDeal]

The UCI does not want to fix the doping problem. The same type of question could be asked as the why the UCI has not put the doping tests, bio passport, etc. in the hands of an independent organization.

 

[Epicycle]

The CO2 method has been around long before the 1970s. But it has been optimized and is being studied...
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/584104_1

"Although this present study already shows that the effect size of several effects such as training is negligible, more data are required before these models can be applied to other conditions not studied here, such as exposure to altitude or after injury/disease. It further has to be pointed out that reliable data can only be obtained with very accurate blood gas analyzers (i.e., accuracy of COHb% concentration should not be less than ?0.1%) and experienced examiners. For practical reasons, it also should be considered that the method cannot be applied just before competition because V(dot)dot;O2max is reduced transiently by ~3% (22)."


The article says the CO2 method could be added to the biological passport.

There is another testing method being worked on to detect autologous blood doping. It uses changes in red blood cells that happen when the blood is removed and stored.

 

[Anonymous]

can someone explain the total body hemo test to me please.. :?

 

[cody251]

Well, there are different tests. The one using a blood sample is actually quite common, often times when you get a physical and they do a "cbc" work-up they test your hemoglobin. I'm not sure which version they would use but this one could easily be added to any current tests done with blood. I specifically inquired about this version because a guy I work with has a wife that runs tests for a medical lab. (basically when you go to the doc for lab work, most places send it to her type of lab)

I was going to explain it but just found this link: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/hemoglobin+test

Summary: "Hemoglobin is a protein inside red blood cells that carries oxygen throughout the body. A hemoglobin test reveals how much hemoglobin is in a person's blood. Hemoglobin is made of heme, an iron compound, and globin, a protein. The iron gives blood its red color. Hemoglobin tests make use of this red color. A chemical is added to a sample of blood to make the red blood cells burst. When they burst, the red cells release hemoglobin into the surrounding fluid, coloring it clear red. By measuring the color using an instrument called a spectrophotometer, the amount of hemoglobin is determined. "

A low hemoglobin usually indicates the person has anemia, and a high hemoglobin indicates the body is making too many red cells. (or doping??)

Not sure how much this version could hold up because volume fluctuations could be argued, note this: "Fluid volume in the blood affects hemoglobin values. Pregnant women and people with cirrhosis have extra fluid, which dilutes the blood, decreasing the hemoglobin. Dehydration concentrates the blood, increasing the hemoglobin."

EDIT
Here is a (LONG but GOOD) article on the Total Hemoglobin Mass (variations) test which is more likely what they would use to catch dopers: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/584104

I can try and send along the whole article in awhile, I'll have my wife log in and download it on her lunch break.

 

[BigBoat]

can someone explain the total body hemo test to me please.. :?

They use infared to measure the CO2 gas concentration in the blood and are able to take the total hemoglobin volume based on how it interacts with the gas, getting moved and pushed around, etc.

 

[BigBoat]

a wife that runs tests for a medical lab. (basically when you go to the doc for lab work, most places send it to her type of lab)
[/B]

ASk about total body hemoglobin count (total red cells in the whole body.) The uci has taken tiny little 4cc blood samples for years, but rider hemodilute their blood to lower hematocrit readings and use blood transfusions to increase total body hemoglobin.

 

[BigBoat]

For practical reasons, it also should be considered that the method cannot be applied just before competition because V(dot)dot;O2max is reduced transiently by ~3% (22)."


That is fine! It does not matter pre-stage but immediately post stage. Do you REALLY believe that the reason they do not do in-competition total body hemoglobins is because it lower V02 by 3%? DO you know how much autologous blood doping increases VO2 max? Up to 20% in a good responder!

They could compare post stage values to out of competition values from the day before even. And lowering your VO2 max by 2 measly points (what a joke) is not a big whoop. Or better yet they could figure out a way to measure total body hematocrit and set a 48% total body hematocrit limit.

Not only that but ONLY taking it outside competition is worthless because that just gives them unlimited time to run off and drain out the extra blood which lower total body hemoglobin and screws up the comparison. We are trying to see their total body hemoglobin (total number of red cells in the body) change when they take autologous blood transfusions.

Now you could compare it with pre-stage values (ie the day before) but better yet, just do a quick pre and post stage total body hemoglobin. Do it on the entire top 10 in G.C., then do it on 5 more at random. This would stop blood doping in the Grand Tours.

VERY IMPORTANT >>>>>One has to get them right away and test them withing 15 minutes, before they can run off and start draining blood.

Total body hemoglobin heamtocrit immediately AFTER the stages would be a solution that any top clean rider would welcome. What is stopping any top rider with the knowledge and knowhow to blood dope with their own blood? The bio pass? What a joke! It doesnt measure total body hemoglobin and doesnt account for hemodilution of the blood with hydroxyethyl starchike drugs like hespan, Pentaspan, etc.! OR Ringer's lactate. All these will dilute your blood ha! Many of those not even tested for by WADA!

 

[BigBoat]

Lance Armstrong helped pay for the epo test in 2000, why wont he help out with the total body hemoglobin test? Lance you need to donate to "the fight against doping."

Common Lance your going to be clean arnt you? You could get beat by someone who is blood doping with their own blood! Are you not worried about that Lance? Lance you should help the UCI with the financial costs of implimenting the total body hemoglobin test!

 

[lookkg386]

For practical reasons, it also should be considered that the method cannot be applied just before competition because V(dot)dot;O2max is reduced transiently by ~3% (22)."


That is fine! It does not matter pre-stage but immediately post stage. Do you REALLY believe that the reason they do not do in-competition total body hemoglobins is because it lower V02 by 3%? DO you know how much autologous blood doping increases VO2 max? Up to 20% in a good responder!

They could compare post stage values to out of competition values from the day before even. And lowering your VO2 max by 2 measly points (what a joke) is not a big whoop. Or better yet they could figure out a way to measure total body hematocrit and set a 48% total body hematocrit limit.

Not only that but ONLY taking it outside competition is worthless because that just gives them unlimited time to run off and drain out the extra blood which lower total body hemoglobin and screws up the comparison. We are trying to see their total body hemoglobin (total number of red cells in the body) change when they take autologous blood transfusions.

Now you could compare it with pre-stage values (ie the day before) but better yet, just do a quick pre and post stage total body hemoglobin. Do it on the entire top 10 in G.C., then do it on 5 more at random. This would stop blood doping in the Grand Tours.

VERY IMPORTANT >>>>>One has to get them right away and test them withing 15 minutes, before they can run off and start draining blood.

Total body hemoglobin heamtocrit immediately AFTER the stages would be a solution that any top clean rider would welcome. What is stopping any top rider with the knowledge and knowhow to blood dope with their own blood? The bio pass? What a joke! It doesnt measure total body hemoglobin and doesnt account for hemodilution of the blood with hydroxyethyl starchike drugs like hespan, Pentaspan, etc.! OR Ringer's lactate. All these will dilute your blood ha! Many of those not even tested for by WADA!

How much blood do they need?, just wondering if there are issues for the cyclists if they are getting these tests quite often, especially if during a GT.

And can I ask basically why it isn't being done, is it the UCI?

 

[BigBoat]

How much blood do they need?, just wondering if there are issues for the cyclists if they are getting these tests quite often, especially if during a GT.

And can I ask basically why it isn't being done, is it the UCI?

They need NO blood for a total body hemoglobin measurment. This measures total number of red cells in the body (total blood volume in the whole entire body). You inhale CO2 gas and infared sensors measure how the gas disipates in the blood stream to take total hemoglobin blood volume.

Now, they have been taking tiny little 4cc or 8cc blood samples in and out of competition including the passport with little CB syringes, and measuring the hemoglobin mass and hematocrit, retic counts, etc. When somebody has very few rectics (immature red cells) and total hemoglobin mass of a sample shifts then they can see blood doping. But this wont work--because if somebody is blood doping with blood that is of normal rectic count the total number of rectics will not drop and no difference or change will be noted. Also, a rider can show up for morning pre-race controls "weigh ins" with normal readings because they have not yet blood doped. And before the start they can literally do a 5 unit transfusion in 15 minutes. On the startline they might be hemodiluted on drugs like lactate ringer or hespan which increase blood volume and decrease the hemoglobin mass of any sample the UCI are collecting at the start. But even if they did this.....

A smart rider will autologous blood dope with their own blood (frozen red blood cells) that has been stored at -80 Centigrade in a special glyceral solution that does not allow the rectics to die off. The only way you can catch these is too keep track of the total number of red cells in their body (total body hemoglobin volume.)

But the UCI wont do this, and I dont think it has anything to do with logistics or cost.

 

[lyjg04444]

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[BigBoat]

Important.