Tour Now and Then

[McLovin]

I want to make a comparison between Tour de France directors Jean Marie Leblanc and Christian Prudhomme. Because the last one is so blasphemed, we should take a objective comparasion. It would be faire to compare only the routes and not how they turn out to be, because then we should compare riders, teams and some stuff in the clinic. From what I know the first Tour designed by CP was 2006 , so that would be 7 tours. I’ll take his 7 with JML last 7, from 99-05 (how ironic). I’ll try to focus on key stages (tt, mountains). I will count first anf HC climbs. Please tell me if I’ll go wrong. I know, a lot of climbs are wasted, but this is in some cases true also for Leblanc. Please look and then vote:

JML Tours:
1999
8 km prologue
56 km TT after one week
Sestriere MTF with Telegraphe, Galibier
Alpe d’Huez MTF with Mont-Cenis, Croix de Fer
Piau-Engaly MTF with Mente, Portillon, Peyresourde and Val Louron-Azet
Pau stage with Aspin, Tourmalet and Aubisque
54.5 km Futuroscope TT
Total 1999: 13 climbs and 118.5 ITT - 3 MTF

2000
16.5 TT
70 km TTT
Hautacam MTF with Marie-Blanque, Aubisque
Mont Ventoux MTF
Briancon stage with Allos, Vars and Izoard
Courchevel MTF with Galibier and Madeleine
Morzine stage with Saisies, Colombier and Joux –Plane
58.5 km TT
Total 2000: 13 climbs, 70 TTT and 75 ITT – 3 MTF

2001
8.2 km prologue
67 km TTT
Alpe d’Huez MTF with Madeleine and Glandon
32 km Chamrousse ITT MTF
Bonascre MTF with Jau
Pla d'Adet MTF with Mente, Portillon, Peyresourde and Val Louron-Azet
Luz Ardiden MTF with Aspin and Tourmalet
61 km TT
Total 2001 – 14 climbs, 67 TTT and 101,2 ITT – 5 MTF

2002
7 km prologue
67.5 km TTT
52 km TT
La Mongie MTF with Aubisque
Plateau de Beille MTF with Mente and Core
Mont Ventoux MTF
Les Deux Alpes MTF
La Plagne MTF with Galibier and Madeleine
Cluses stage with Cormet de Roselend, Saisies and Colombiere
50 km TT
Total 2002 – 13 climbs, 67.5 TTT, 109 ITT - 5 MTF

2003
6.5 km prologue
69 km TTT
Morzine stage with Ramaz
Alpe d’Huez MTF with Telegraphe and Galibier
Gap with Lautaret and Izoard
47 km TT
Bonascre MTF with Pailheres
Loudenvielle stage with Core, Mente, Portillon and Peyresourde
Luz Ardiden MTF with Aspin and Tourmalet
Bayonne stage with Soudet and Bagarguy
49 km TT
Total 2003 – 17 climbs, 69 TTT, 102.5 ITT – 3 MTF

2004
6.1 km prologue
64.5 km TTT
St Flour stage with Peyrol
La Mongie MTF with Aspin
Plateau de Beille MTF with Core and Agnes
Villard de Lans stage with Echarasson
Alpe d’Huez 13.8 TT MTF
Le Grand Bornand stage with Glandon, Madeleine, Forclaz and Croix-Fry
55 km TT
Total 2004 - 12 climbs, 64.5 TTT, 74.9 ITT – 3 MTF

2005
19 km TT
67.5 TTT
Mulhouse stage with Ballon d’Alsace
Courchevel MTF with Cormet de Roselend
Briancon stage with Madeleine, Telegraphe and Galibier
Bonascre MTF with Pailheres
Pla d’Adet MTF with Mente, Portillon, Peyresourde and Val Louron Azet
Pau stage with Marie Blanque and Aubisque
55 km TT
Total 2005 – 15 climbs, 67.5 TTT, 74 ITT – 3 MTF

MP
2006
7 km prologue
52 km TT
Pau stage with Soudet and Marie Blanque
Pla de Beret MTF with Tourmalet, Aspin, Peyresourde and Portillon
Alpe d’Huez MTF with Izoard
La Toussuire MTF with Galibier and Croix de Fer
Morzine stage with Saisies, Colombiere and Joux Plane
56 km TT
Total 2006: 15 climbs, 115 TT – 3 MTF

2007
8 km prologue
Grand Bornand stage with Colombiere
Tignes MTF with Cormet de Roselend and Montée d'Hauteville
Briancon stage with Iseran, Galibier and Telegraphe
54 km TT
Plateau de Beille MTF with Pailheres
Louron stage with Mente, Bales and Peyresourde
Aubisque MTF with Larrau, Pierre St Martin and Marie Blanque
55.5 TT
Total 2007: 16 climbs, 117.5 ITT – 3 MTF

2008
29.5 ITT
Bagnères de Bigorre stage with Peyresourde and Aspin
Hautacam MTF with Tourmalet
Foix stage with Portel
Prato Nevoso MTF with Agnel
Jousiers stage with Lombarde and Bonette
Alpe d’Huez MTF with Galibier and Croix de Fer
53 km TT
Total 2008: 12 climbs, 82.5 ITT – 3 MTF

2009
15 km TT
38 km TTT
Arcalis MTF
Saint Girons stage with Envalira and Agnes
Tarbes stage with Aspin and Tourmalet
Verbier MTF
Bourg st Maurice stage with Grand St Bernard and Petit St. Bernard
Grand Bornand stage with Cormet de Roselend, Saisies, Romme and Colombiere
40 km ITT
Mont Ventoux MTF
Total 2009: 12 climbs, 38 TTT, 55 ITT – 3 MTF

2010
8.9 km prologue
Avoriaz MTF with Ramaz
St. Jean de Maurienne stage with Colombiere, Aravis, Saisies and Madeleine
Gap stage with Laffrey
Bonascre MTF with Pailheres
Lochon stage with Bales
Pau stage with Peyresourde, Aspin, Tourmalet and Aubisque
Tourmalet MTF with Marie Blanque and Soulor
52 km TT
Total 2010: 17 climbs, 60.9 ITT – 3 MTF

2011
23 km TTT
Luz Ardiden MTF with Hourquette d'Ancizan and Tourmalet
Lourdes stage with Aubisque
Plateau de Beille MTF with Core and Agnes
Pinerolo stage with Sestrieres
Galibier MTF with Agnes and Izoard
Alpe d’Huez MTF with Telegraphe and Galibier
42.5 ITT
Total 2011: 14 climbs, 23 km TTT, 42.5 ITT – 4 MTF

2012
6.1 km prologue
La Plance de Belle Fille MTF
38 km TT
Bellegarde stage with Grand Colombier
La Toussuire MTF with Madeleine and Croix de Fer
Annonay stage with Grand Cucheron and Granier
Foix stage with Lers and Peguere
Luchon stage with Aubisque, Tourmalet, Aspin and Petresourde
Peyragudes MTG with Mente and Bales
52 km ITT
Total 2012: 16 climbs, 96.1 TT – 3 MTF


JML 97 climbs 405.5 TTT 655.1 ITT 25 MTF
Vs.
CP 102 climbs 121.9 TTT 569.5 ITT 22 MTF


as a joke: winners 1 vs 4

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Ummm, so what's the question for the poll?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

linda Evangelista

 

[bicing]

I have two ideas for what the poll question is:
- who loves the Tourmalet more?
- what is the upper limit for # Tourmalet's per decade?

 

[Ferminal]

2006 and 2007 reasonable. 8, 9 and 10 horrible. 11 somewhere between those two groups. 2012 terrible. I'd go JML.

 

[Kvinto]

I hope one day Tour de France will finally get a director who would refuse an annoying strategy of making a long flat TT on the penultimate stage and then i'll vote for him.

 

[sublimit]

This is cool.. we get 4 answers but we have to guess the question first before solving the answer.

 

[roundabout]

Let's see.

1999 pretty bad. 3 out of 4 mountain stages were very good in terms of action (even the one to Pau!) but Zülle still finished second by 3 minutes despite a 6 minute handicap.

2000. Heras was climbing well in that edition. How much did the TTT cost him? Near enough 3 minutes. About the same as he lost to Moreau in the long TT.

Stages - Aubisque + Hautacam, ok. Ventoux the usual. Briancon stage was a snoozefest for quite a while but it gets bonus points for being 250km long. Courchevel and Morzine stages ok.

Overall, pretty good. TTT possibly too long.

2001. Madeleine-Glandon-Alpe d'Huez - very good. 2 part MTT to Chamrousse also good. Ax-les-Thermes stage meh. Pla d'Adet was classic. Aspin-Tourmalet-Luz-Ardiden good.

Hmm, I'd say a very good route.

2002. La Mongie - only acceptable as the first mountain stage. Short and Aubisque very far from the end. Plateau-de-Beille, okay considering where it is. Ventoux usual. Les 2 Alpes, meh. La Plagne, ok. Cluses - meh, too short and climbs not steep enough.

Okay, but worse than 2001.

2003. Morzine-nothing. Alpe d'Huez - okay. Gap-good. Bonascre - ok. Loudenville good, Luz Ardiden good. Stage to Bayonne - facepalm but they had to go there because it was 2003.

Probably slightly better than 2002.

2004. I admit that I was unable to see most of the Tour that year so I'll pass.

2005. First year of the loss-limits in the TTT? Main Vosges stage - meh. Previous better than it should have been. Courchevel - okay but mostly because it was ridden quite hard. Briancon - barely ok. Bonascre - good as they actually made use of Pailheres instead of plodding up like in 03. Pla d'Adet classic. Pau-facepalm.

So I'll rate them from best to worst

2001-2003-2000/2002-2005-1999.

Preudhomme.

2006

Pau - crap, Pla de no time gaps - good, Alpe d'Huez - ok, Toussuire - good, Morzine good. And yet I feel that there was too much TT in that edition.

2007

Le Grand Bornand - ok only as the first mountain stage. Tignes - good on paper with no flat between climbs but climbs weren't steep enough. Briancon - ok as the stage was raced. Pailheres-Plateau-de-Beille - good. Bales+Peyresourde - good, Aubisque - good (bonus points for the length and Larrau).

Alps - pretty bad, Pyrenees much better.

2008

Pyrenees stage 1 - crap, Tourmalet-Hautacam - good, stage 3 - crap. Prato Nevoso ok. Stage to Jausiers good, Alpe'd Huez good.

Not that bad.

2009

Abomination. The less said the better.

2010

Morzine - good as the first big mountain stage. over the Madeleine good. Bonascre was probably the worst out of 2003-2005-2010 but on paper it was a good stage. Luchon stage with Bales only - okay, Pau - bad even if I was hoping for something to happen. Tourmalet - okay.

In hindsight not enough TT.

2011

Luz-Ardiden - should have been a classic, but came too early. Lourdes - bad. Plateau-de-Beille- should have been good. First Galibier stage - very good. Second Galibier stage - okay.

2012

Early signs point to bad.

So I'd guess it's 2007/2008-2010-2011-2006----------------2009 and 2012 as the big question mark.

I guess JML wins as he didn't produce a stinker like 2009.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

2008

Stage to Jausiers good

A stage with 0 meaningful attacks is not good, IMO. It was a snoozefest.

 

[roundabout]

I am not rating the action. I am rating the route.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

I am not rating the action. I am rating the route.

Then why did you say...

So I'd guess it's 2007/2008-2010-2011-2006----------------2009 and 2012 as the big question mark.

The 2012 route is pretty much known. It's hardly a big question mark.

 

[roundabout]

You're right.

Let me correct my post.

PAilheres-Bonascre combination good on paper, 2012 route a 6/10 from the rate the route thread.

Happy now?

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Happy now?

Sure.

I was just curious as to your reasoning.

 

[McLovin]

Sorry.i tought the question was obvious.some of you don't want to see it.

 

[AngusW]

For me, the difference between LeBlanc and Prudhomme is that one has a sense of history and the other is clueless.

To elaborate:

In 1947, Jean Robic joins a breakaway on the final stage of the Tour and gains enough time to overtake the maillot jaune and win the Tour overall.

In 1968, the race concludes with a time trial. Jan Janssen wins the final time trial and makes up enough time on the maillot jaune, Herman Vanspringel, to win the Tour overall.

In 1989, Leblanc is directing his first Tour. Since 1975, the Tour has always concluded with an en ligne stage on the Champs Elysees. In 1989, Leblanc makes the final stage a time trial starting in Versailles and finishing on the Champs. Greg Lemond makes up enough time to overcome his 50 second deficit on Laurent Fignon and win the Tour overall by 8 seconds.

In 2010, Prudhomme has the opportunity to change the Tour format of the previous twenty years and make the final stage meaningful to the GC. What does he do? Same format as the previous years - time trial on the penultimate stage, parade into Paris on last day.

Maybe he didn't want to be seen as imitating the Giro...

 

[greenedge]

I think the TDF routes are more balanced now. With JML there were a glut of mountains with maybe more exciting racing even the breaks. For some reason i still decided to vote CP.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Seems to me what Prudhomme has specialized in is neutering most of the race to ensure that it's close in the last few days.

 

[Swabian Lass]

LeBlanc. Can't stand this back load everything into the second lot of mountains and last few days approach. It might lead to one or two good stages, but it's two weeks procession and bore fest.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Interest how evaluations seems to boil down to how the mountain stages were perceived.
Nothing about the endless series of flat, flat stages.
At least Prudhomme has recently made and effort to break up this tedium.
Having said that, isn't the route about those ville prepared to stump up the mega euros to host a depart/arrive, as much as anything else?

To me, other than the ongoing trend to trim trialing, there isn't much difference, since their basic, working template, remains the same.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

...

In 2010, Prudhomme has the opportunity to change the Tour format of the previous twenty years and make the final stage meaningful to the GC. What does he do? Same format as the previous years - time trial on the penultimate stage, parade into Paris on last day.

Maybe he didn't want to be seen as imitating the Giro...

I'm all for more TTing in the GTs but they are dull to watch, live and on TV. They should never be scheduled for a weekend, let alone the final Sunday. On the other hand, the finale round the Champs Elysees is a great spectacle, in the flesh as well as on TV, so let's keep it as it is please.

 

[guncha]

JML.

JML always had 4-5 high mountain stages for GC. Discounting Mt.Ventoux stages all the other GC stages included at least two 1/H.C. climbs.
4-5 high mountain stages of such a difficulty is a fair balance against two long ITTs. With lesser GC stages in high mountains the route cannot be good.
Medium mountains are nice but high mountains should play major role in TDF.

While JML has never failed completly CP has done it at least twice:
2009. Excluding final climbs all three MTF stages didn't have any 1/H.C. climbs (for Mt.Ventoux it is understandable, for Verbier and Arcalis it is not understandable). St.Girons, Tarbes, Bourg Saint Maurice were waste with final climbs too far from the finish. Grand Bornard stage with Romme+Colombier at the end was the only well designed stage in TDF 2009.
4/10
2012. Three mountain stages are wasted (Bellagrade, Annonay, Foix). Apart from that the route has two well designed high mountain stages with MTFs, one stage with decent (final climb is not very selective) and one single climb medium mountain MTF (big time gaps not very likely).
All in all, two good GC stages, two questionable GC stages - cannot remember when TDF had such a dull mountains.
4/10