Training philosophy in various teams

[ingsve]

Recently I read that Alexander Kristoff was critical about the lack of interest that BMC took in their riders training. He said that they had no real training camps and no training regimen that they recommend. All they told him was to lose weight but gave no tips on nutrition or a diet to follow etc.

Team Sky on the other hand seems to be the complete opposite with Rod Ellingworth, Bobby Julich and Kurt Asle Arvesen having the roles of coaches that keep a closer watch on the riders training and preparation.

I guess these two can be seen as being at either end of the spectrum but where do other teams fall on this issue? Is it more common that teams completely ignore how their riders train or are other teams more similar to Sky and takes a greater interest in their riders?

 

[maxmartin]

I am sure some people will suggest Clinic might be a better place for a topic like this.

 

[Caruut]

I am sure some people will suggest Clinic might be a better place for a topic like this.

Then let's prove them wrong and have a reasonable discussion, then.

I have an issue of ProCycling where BMC basically say they let their riders decide.

Basso is meant to be a crazily hard worker, Sastre was too, I believe.

 

[ingsve]

It seems to me that it doesn't really seem like a serious professional sport if teams aren't interested in their riders development. Imagine a football team where everyone trained on their own and then just came together for matches.

 

[OctaBech]

Recently I read that Alexander Kristoff was critical about the lack of interest that BMC took in their riders training. He said that they had no real training camps and no training regimen that they recommend. All they told him was to lose weight but gave no tips on nutrition or a diet to follow etc.

Team Sky on the other hand seems to be the complete opposite with Rod Ellingworth, Bobby Julich and Kurt Asle Arvesen having the roles of coaches that keep a closer watch on the riders training and preparation.

I guess these two can be seen as being at either end of the spectrum but where do other teams fall on this issue? Is it more common that teams completely ignore how their riders train or are other teams more similar to Sky and takes a greater interest in their riders?

It is actually quite ordinary that the riders are left to their own. It's one of the things Riis wanted to change when he created his own team and it's no coincidence that two of the guys you mention are former Team CSC riders. It's not just training but also ensuring the gear is in the best condition, building team spirit and mental training, where other teams just expect the rider to be mentally strong. Garmin is another team which also focus a lot on being there for their riders, but like Riis it's expensive meaning they have less money in their budget for rider purchases and instead have to rely on the riders preferring the team over the numbers on their paychecks. Sky is a different beast as they can afford both.

 

[mombus]

I know Saxo and Garmin are hardcore with team training. I also know that Lampre train together and train like crazy. I have trouble believing the BMC thing.

 

[Eric8-A]

I know Saxo and Garmin are hardcore with team training. I also know that Lampre train together and train like crazy. I have trouble believing the BMC thing.

I've heard Garmin say several times that they focus more on training and testing more than winning.

 

[T-Rav.]

It seems to me that it doesn't really seem like a serious professional sport if teams aren't interested in their riders development. Imagine a football team where everyone trained on their own and then just came together for matches.

I agree. By the same token, getting a handle on what works for each individual rider is probably a lot more difficult if you have a lot of new riders on your team compared to previous years. In the past year, mergers created RSNT and OPQS, Orica-Greenedge was launched, BMC went on a signing spree, and HTC-Highroad disbanded, and there's probably a lot of other stuff I'm forgetting about. That seems to me like a ton of rider movement within the peloton, so I think this year is probably an outlier for some teams in terms of being able to oversee effective rider training.

Sky seems to have made controlling rider training a major priority for a while, which, along with the fact that they appear to have held onto most of their riders from last year, might explain a lot of the success and cohesion they've had.

In the case of other teams, just because you bring together a whole bunch of great riders from other teams all at once doesn't mean it will be easy to get them to buy into your training system and perform to their potential right away. Some teams were able to manage it well (OPQS), some teams have not (RSNT, BMC).

 

[ingsve]

I agree. By the same token, getting a handle on what works for each individual rider is probably a lot more difficult if you have a lot of new riders on your team compared to previous years. In the past year, mergers created RSNT and OPQS, Orica-Greenedge was launched, BMC went on a signing spree, and HTC-Highroad disbanded, and there's probably a lot of other stuff I'm forgetting about. That seems to me like a ton of rider movement within the peloton, so I think this year is probably an outlier for some teams in terms of being able to oversee effective rider training.

Sky seems to have made controlling rider training a major priority for a while, which, along with the fact that they appear to have held onto most of their riders from last year, might explain a lot of the success and cohesion they've had.

In the case of other teams, just because you bring together a whole bunch of great riders from other teams all at once doesn't mean it will be easy to get them to buy into your training system and perform to their potential right away. Some teams were able to manage it well (OPQS), some teams have not (RSNT, BMC).

I guess the mobility between teams is a factor in why this is the case though it works both ways. When teams don't really work as a team but just an umbrella which brings together individual riders then it doesn't really create any real team spirit that keeps riders in that team for a long while either.

Does anyone know how things work on the smaller teams that have more of a regional focus like the french or belgian continental teams like Saur Sojasun, Bretagne-Schuller or Topsport Vlaanderen?

 

[CQmanager]

These days you dont need team or training buddy for cycling training. You dont need anybody to do 20min intervals at 105-110% of your FTP or any other workout. All you need is a powermeter. Numbers dont lie. Do your workout and send the file to your coach five thousand miles away. Done! Same for dieting, you dont need coach or nutritionist to control what you put in your mouth. If you havent figure out eating/dieting by now you shouldnt be a pro rider. Talent is not going to cut it. Discipline will get you there faster than talent.

You need camps to practice leadouts, sprints, TTT, bike fiting or to meet your teammates. You really dont need anybody for everyday training.

 

[ingsve]

These days you dont need team or training buddy for cycling training. You dont need anybody to do 20min intervals at 105-110% of your FTP or any other workout. All you need is a powermeter. Numbers dont lie. Do your workout and send the file to your coach five thousand miles away. Done! Same for dieting, you dont need coach or nutritionist to control what you put in your mouth. If you havent figure out eating/dieting by now you shouldnt be a pro rider. Talent is not going to cut it. Discipline will get you there faster than talent.

You need camps to practice leadouts, sprints, TTT, bike fiting or to meet your teammates. You really dont need anybody for everyday training.

It's not just about lack of training camps, that was just part of it. Of course the actually riding on the bike can be done anywhere and in any company. What Kristoff was talking about was that they took no interest in looking at the "file sent thousands of miles" or anything of that kind. As for dieting, if you are following your own head and you're doing something wrong, how would you ever know? Of course there are benefits to having coaches and nutritionists monitor how well the riders are handling themselves. How smart is it for a team to have riders that are riding like crap because they're not keeping a good enough diet for example? I guess the team can just let them go and get someone else which I guess is what happens all the time but wouldn't it be smarter to have a little better insight from day one and actually care about the developemnt of the current riders rather than just treating them as throw away products that you replace if you are not happy with them?

 

[CQmanager]

It's not just about lack of training camps, that was just part of it. Of course the actually riding on the bike can be done anywhere and in any company. What Kristoff was talking about was that they took no interest in looking at the "file sent thousands of miles" or anything of that kind. As for dieting, if you are following your own head and you're doing something wrong, how would you ever know? Of course there are benefits to having coaches and nutritionists monitor how well the riders are handling themselves. How smart is it for a team to have riders that are riding like crap because they're not keeping a good enough diet for example? I guess the team can just let them go and get someone else which I guess is what happens all the time but wouldn't it be smarter to have a little better insight from day one and actually care about the developemnt of the current riders rather than just treating them as throw away products that you replace if you are not happy with them?

What you are saying is correct. I was just saying that training can be done anywhere. Obviously if the coach is not reading your powermeter files and training reports you are screwed. Good coach will adjust your training plan based on your numbers and your feedback. As per eating, any junior should be capable of preparing basic meals and eating protein/carbs as needed. Sure your team doctor can recommend some specific items but you are the one putting the food in your mouth. It is not that hard to cook some pasta or rice or to buy some fresh fruit and vegetables.

 

[ingsve]

What you are saying is correct. I was just saying that training can be done anywhere. Obviously if the coach is not reading your powermeter files and training reports you are screwed. Good coach will adjust your training plan based on your numbers and your feedback. As per eating, any junior should be capable of preparing basic meals and eating protein/carbs as needed. Sure your team doctor can recommend some specific items but you are the one putting the food in your mouth. It is not that hard to cook some pasta or rice or to buy some fresh fruit and vegetables.

I would think that in a case where the objective is to get the rider to lose weight while still getting enough carbs to take care of training etc then you need more detailed help than simply buying vegetables and cooking pasta.

 

[RedheadDane]

Then let's prove them wrong and have a reasonable discussion, then.

I have an issue of ProCycling where BMC basically say they let their riders decide.

Basso is meant to be a crazily hard worker, Sastre was too, I believe.

According to Brian Vandborg Basso has to have a guy calling him to make sure he doesn't train every day.


Eeh... by training camps does that include the somewhat crazy camps some teams (mainly Saxo) have?

 

[OctaBech]

Eeh... by training camps does that include the somewhat crazy camps some teams (mainly Saxo) have?

I think it should as the survival camps are designed to promote communication, teamwork and make the riders cool in stressed situations. However, even teams like Saxo do not have this type of camps that often, most of the camps are focused ordinary training and more importantly measuring where the riders are at physically. The data from these camps makes it easier to plan each riders training program and race schedule.

 

[El Pistolero]

Cyclists usually train alone or with friends.

 

[euanli]

I think more its the difference between having someone at the team who monitors and plans training for the riders rather than the freelance method that seem prevalent where it is up to riders to find their own coach.

Certainly reading an interview with Kerrison today it seems like he is in charge of all the riders training now. He gave hints at his training philosophy based around models of what is required of each rider.

 

[DominicDecoco]

I believe I read something about BMC training way too hard in the pre-season and kind of set the riders back already from the beginning of 2012 - which now seems to be somewhat true.

Can't find any links as proof on this matter, though.

 

[gustienordic]

Recently I read that Alexander Kristoff was critical about the lack of interest that BMC took in their riders training. He said that they had no real training camps and no training regimen that they recommend. All they told him was to lose weight but gave no tips on nutrition or a diet to follow etc.

Team Sky on the other hand seems to be the complete opposite with Rod Ellingworth, Bobby Julich and Kurt Asle Arvesen having the roles of coaches that keep a closer watch on the riders training and preparation.

I guess these two can be seen as being at either end of the spectrum but where do other teams fall on this issue? Is it more common that teams completely ignore how their riders train or are other teams more similar to Sky and takes a greater interest in their riders?

I think Sky is unique, maybe Garmin is pretty similar, I don't know for sure. I can't imagine being on a huge team like BMC though and not having a good coach/nutritionist. I would much rather train with people as well, but I suppose thats why alot of pros tend to live in small clumps so they can all train together.

 

[CobbleStoner]

what you guys are talking about is development teams, junior teams, club teams. they all train together and have an emphasis on training, but once you get to the level of World Tour rider, you have gone through that, you know best what works for you, and you usually have personel coaches/trainers/nutrionalist that you listen to more than the team you are riding for that year, teams at the pro tour level would be wasting time and money focusing on team training (except the mental aspects of TTT & lead outs), they are way past that. there is enough restrictions already on your whereabouts

 

[RedheadDane]

Cycling is really a weird sport in that regard. It's one of the weird sports where you can train alone, or indeed with your rivals.

 

[Tei6chai]

what you guys are talking about is development teams, junior teams, club teams. they all train together and have an emphasis on training, but once you get to the level of World Tour rider, you have gone through that, you know best what works for you, and you usually have personel coaches/trainers/nutrionalist that you listen to more than the team you are riding for that year, teams at the pro tour level would be wasting time and money focusing on team training (except the mental aspects of TTT & lead outs), they are way past that. there is enough restrictions already on your whereabouts

That kind of thinking rather neatly sums up why Sky are trouncing their opposition and so many people in these forum's can't understand why.

No rider, no matter how experienced, has either the knowledge or the time to research and test all the factors which influence their performance in a given situation.

Any of those factors could make the difference between winning and losing, but let's just consider the issue of teamwork.

Sky's team has judged their collective effort on every day of this TdF to near perfection.

With perhaps the exception of Porte, none of them has put in anything like a super human effort.

They have each given a great, but entirely believable, effort at exactly the right part of each stage, making the best of their particular characteristics.

You don't think that they practised this together, or that the team practice made the slightest bit of difference?

 

[Michele]

What you are saying is correct. I was just saying that training can be done anywhere. Obviously if the coach is not reading your powermeter files and training reports you are screwed. Good coach will adjust your training plan based on your numbers and your feedback. As per eating, any junior should be capable of preparing basic meals and eating protein/carbs as needed. Sure your team doctor can recommend some specific items but you are the one putting the food in your mouth. It is not that hard to cook some pasta or rice or to buy some fresh fruit and vegetables.

In this exact forum it was reported some months ago that De Gendt had some weight issue; he wouldnt be able to avoid some foods like sausages if I recall correctly.
Now according to you this cant be true cause he's been cycling since early days, but as you see sometimes it does happen.
Plus stuff like diets and trainings plans have ever updates every year and each trainer/coach have a different approach.

If I may add there's also "each rider factor"; some need to have a trainer daily to tell them what to do, some don't and this doesnt depends on age or experience but just about caracters.

 

[ingsve]

what you guys are talking about is development teams, junior teams, club teams. they all train together and have an emphasis on training, but once you get to the level of World Tour rider, you have gone through that, you know best what works for you, and you usually have personel coaches/trainers/nutrionalist that you listen to more than the team you are riding for that year, teams at the pro tour level would be wasting time and money focusing on team training (except the mental aspects of TTT & lead outs), they are way past that. there is enough restrictions already on your whereabouts

So there is no point in helping a rider develop once they reach the age of say 23? The point is that the team should at least be a little interested in what type of training the riders are doing. If they have any type of ambition they should probably give input that a certain rider perhaps needs to work more on improving his sprinting or to get better at getting over climbs etc. The team probably has some idea of why they hired a rider and what role they see for that rider now and in the future so to me it's obvious that the team should care a lot about what their riders are doing in their preparations. The actual training can of course be done where ever you happen to live but that doesn't stop the team from wanting input into what you actually do when you are out on your own.

 

[hfer07]

Not bordering any doping issues- the only commentaries I've read/heard from some riders was the gap that existed a couple years ago between the French & some Spanish Teams, compared to the so called "cutting edge" Training approach by *Riis, *Bruyneel, *JV & the Anglo-phone teams. Those comments were made by riders that switched from those French/Spanish teams where the approach was "old School" & not much about the current "Scientific approach" where every single detail (food, training, equipment, training camps, TTing) is considered in order to maximize results. Purito said he's been delighted with the approach at Katusha, and found it much better than the one he had at Caisse. The same has been said about LuLu at Rabobank.