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I've noticed that stage races - long and short - are increasingly including a team time trial stage.

I don't particularly like them, but then I was thinking: is this intentionally designed to diminish the climbing trains (which do truly kill a stage race)? i.e. it forces teams to bring in more rouleurs...

And on that basis, I'm thinking: not a bad idea. What do you think?
 
Truthfully I'm not really sure what it's designed to do. Quickstep has been one of the better TTT teams for a long time and they are a classics team. BMC is well BMC and the best TTT team in the WT and has been for a long time. Their top GC guys usually find ways to loose time in the mountains. Movistar is a team of climbers and always will be no matter what you do. I personally actually enjoy watching the TTT, but I also enjoy watching the ITTs. The problem with your thinking is that Sky is one of the best TTT teams and they are the ones with main mountain train. Also those trains depend on the type of climbs. They work great for the long steady climbs which are in France, but not as well for the shorter, steeper varied gradient climbs of Spain that are really more for the puncheur type climbers.
 
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Koronin said:
Truthfully I'm not really sure what it's designed to do. Quickstep has been one of the better TTT teams for a long time and they are a classics team. BMC is well BMC and the best TTT team in the WT and has been for a long time. Their top GC guys usually find ways to loose time in the mountains. Movistar is a team of climbers and always will be no matter what you do. I personally actually enjoy watching the TTT, but I also enjoy watching the ITTs. The problem with your thinking is that Sky is one of the best TTT teams and they are the ones with main mountain train. Also those trains depend on the type of climbs. They work great for the long steady climbs which are in France, but not as well for the shorter, steeper varied gradient climbs of Spain that are really more for the puncheur type climbers.

I take your point. Sky does contradict my original post. Someone like Kiryienka is a former world tt champ, but also does his fair share of pacing on the climbs. Then you look at riders like Thomas, Moscon, Kwiatkowski who are excellent at both. Even Poels won the tt in Paris Nice.

but then: the final spot might be Rosa or someone like Stannard. A TTT might shift the selection balance to the latter.
 
I completely agree with Valv.Piti that this year the number of TTT's is only so high because it's a tdf preparation where the TTT will be crucial. Hopefully the number of TTT's will therefore go down again next year, since while I don't like them in gt's I absolutely hate them in one week races. To see why, look no further than Tirreno Adriatico last week and see who got 2nd. Damiano Caruso only got 13th in the big mtf, finishing last in the group with most gc contenders, was one of the worst gc rider on the murito losing 24 seconds, had a mediocre ITT finishing 37th, but he got 2nd place overall because of a TTT where he wasn't even the reason for the team being so strong. I know many people like to call cycling a team sport, but it isn't. A team sport is a sport where at the end of the competition the official winner is a team, in cycling the official winner is one rider. In the case of Tirreno Adriatico the winner was Kwiatkowski, not sky, while 2nd place was Caruso, not BMC. And since it isn't a team sport I think that there is no way the team of a rider should be the single reason why this rider finishes high in the gc. I mean with TTT's we have reached the point where you can be a bad TT'er but win the race because of TT's. The team's strength may be important but it should never be the most important factor.

The advantage of gt's compared to one week races is that while short stage races like TA often only have one big mountain stage, gt's usually have more than six, so no matter how strong your team is, a guy like Caruso won't finish on the podium without being one of the strongest riders in the rest of the stages. That said, I'm still not a fan of TTT's. Maybe the only reason for that is that we are currently witnessing the sky era. In the op the main argument for TTT's was to reduce the strength of mountain trains, since in theory the most important domestiques in the mountains are bad in TTT's so you have to find a balance in your team between TT'ing and climbing. However unfortunately that's just theory and in fact there are many riders who are good in both and the best teams will be the guys who have these riders in their squad. So if Froome may participate in the tour, and we assume his main rivals are the Movistar guys how would the race unfold: (ofc their are many more rivals but I'm just using this as a simplified example)
Sky has the way better TTT team so they'll gain a lot of time on Movistar. In the mountains the guys who are great TT'ers are also great climbing domestiques so their mountain train can work just as usually and since they already have an advantage they can even use their tactic of controlling perfectly and don't have to use their strength for setting up attacks. Movistar who have lots of great climbers in their team can try to derail the sky train, but unfortunately their climbing squad isn't at full strength since they had to include guys who are good on the flat in their squad to not lose too much time in the TTT.
As you can see, a TTT doesn't only help the strongest teams it also hinders the weaker ones. And if we have seen one thing in the past tours, a strong team already is a huge advantage without a TTT in the route.
As I've written before, if we wouldn't have a dominant team like sky right now my opinion might be different. But after all the organizers don't make their routes without knowing the teams so in my opinion, if you know that there is a dominant sky team right now, why on earth do you deliberately make your race more boring by including a TTT?

Anyway, there is one place where I would theoretically like TTT's which is the WC. The TTT event is usually good to watch however I'm still annoyed they don't have national teams. Isn't it one of the unique things about the WC that you have national teams and riders not competing for who pays them but for their country. If they would make the change to national teams there'd be at least one TTT I absolutely like.
 
I think TTTs are mostly for commercial reasons, so the names of the sponsors of the teams are getting mentioned more often than they would be on any other type of stage.

I don't really like imbalanced routes where a TTT is likely to make a difference of more than 1-2 places for any rider in final GC. But I wouldn't like them to disappear completely from road cycling. I like them.
 
I hate them. They only exist so sponsors can get glossy photos of the team working in harmony to put in ads, without any pesky logos from other companies in the frame. They give the rich teams even more of an advantage than they already have. Prologues were great - the commentators got a chance to introduce all the riders to casual fans, discuss their goals and their seasons so far etc, plus they had more going on in a shorter distance. Bring back prologues.
 
So: furious agreement that this has nothing at all to do with race organizers wanting to diminish the strength of mountain trains?

You've all convinced me. Sky really does contradict my OP - they have definitely mastered skinny without losing (or even gaining) tt power. But traditionally, this has always been a big trade off for team selection.
 
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The Hegelian said:
So: furious agreement that this has nothing at all to do with race organizers wanting to diminish the strength of mountain trains?

You've all convinced me. Sky really does contradict my OP - they have definitely mastered skinny without losing (or even gaining) tt power. But traditionally, this has always been a big trade off for team selection.
You just buy all the Castro, THomases and Kwiato's and get free minutes in both.
 
I don't like them because they falsify the race, even if cycling is regarded as team sport it's the name of the winner (and the names of the ones who where on the podium) which is remembered. Someone correctly pointed out the caruso example but there are many like that. Besides having a stronger team is already a very big advantage in a stage race. They exist for commercial reasons, that's why at the WC you don't have the TTT with national teams. Considering that the commercial reasons are difficult to be eliminated I would have them the less influential as possible.

The TTT in this year's tour will massively define the GC, I don't like it. The vuelta is better, they keep the TTT very short, but the best is the giro. I noticed that it doesn't feature a TTT since 2015. The giro solution is the best, the 2018 tour has the worst approach.
 
La Vuelta's TTT is usually the 1st stage and usually more of a prolog type of distance, which isn't too bad and those can be fun, but get longer than it decides the overall. Watching Valencia's TTT this year with the rain and decision to not count the time for GC the announcers were actually talking about the fact they don't think there should be TTT's in stage races of 5 days or less.
 
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vedrafjord said:
Prologues were great - the commentators got a chance to introduce all the riders to casual fans, discuss their goals and their seasons so far etc, plus they had more going on in a shorter distance. Bring back prologues.

I'm a bit confused; prologues have completely stopped happening?

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EroicaStradeBianche said:
I don't like them because they falsify the race, even if cycling is regarded as team sport it's the name of the winner (and the names of the ones who where on the podium) which is remembered.

That's exactly why I like TTTs; because they highlight the weird double nature of cycling; a team sport with only one winner (except for TTTs).
 
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The Hegelian said:
I've noticed that stage races - long and short - are increasingly including a team time trial stage.

I don't particularly like them, but then I was thinking: is this intentionally designed to diminish the climbing trains (which do truly kill a stage race)? i.e. it forces teams to bring in more rouleurs...

And on that basis, I'm thinking: not a bad idea. What do you think?

I'm not personally a fan of TTTs but I can see why some people enjoy them. To be successful at them requires significant practice, teamwork and coordination. I don't mind TTTs early in a race when teams are at full strength and the stage is short because that minimizes their effect on the GC. Yeah, they're a bit boring, but you could say the same about most sprint stages.
 
I don't dislike TTT's, but they've become more and more a replacer of long ITT's, which is ridicolous.
The most annoying change in cycling the last 20 years is that long ITT's are almost completely gone and replaced by TTT's up to 20/30km.

Bring back a classical GT with 5/6 mt stages, 2 decent long ITT's and a short prologue and maybe a short TTT. But don't use TTT's in 1 week stage races please.
 
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
I don't dislike TTT's, but they've become more and more a replacer of long ITT's, which is ridicolous.
The most annoying change in cycling the last 20 years is that long ITT's are almost completely gone and replaced by TTT's up to 20/30km.

Bring back a classical GT with 5/6 mt stages, 2 decent long ITT's and a short prologue and maybe a short TTT. But don't use TTT's in 1 week stage races please.
I care a lot more about a competitive race than 'balance'. If the 2 best climbers of the world are the best and the worst TT'ers, 100km of ITT can be be damned
 
Durden93 said:
The Hegelian said:
I've noticed that stage races - long and short - are increasingly including a team time trial stage.

I don't particularly like them, but then I was thinking: is this intentionally designed to diminish the climbing trains (which do truly kill a stage race)? i.e. it forces teams to bring in more rouleurs...

And on that basis, I'm thinking: not a bad idea. What do you think?

I'm not personally a fan of TTTs but I can see why some people enjoy them. To be successful at them requires significant practice, teamwork and coordination. I don't mind TTTs early in a race when teams are at full strength and the stage is short because that minimizes their effect on the GC. Yeah, they're a bit boring, but you could say the same about most sprint stages.

Isn't it a rule that a TTT can't be too late in a race? Remember the issue a couple of years ago when they had a TTT on stage 9 of the Tour?
 
RedheadDane said:
Durden93 said:
The Hegelian said:
I've noticed that stage races - long and short - are increasingly including a team time trial stage.

I don't particularly like them, but then I was thinking: is this intentionally designed to diminish the climbing trains (which do truly kill a stage race)? i.e. it forces teams to bring in more rouleurs...

And on that basis, I'm thinking: not a bad idea. What do you think?

I'm not personally a fan of TTTs but I can see why some people enjoy them. To be successful at them requires significant practice, teamwork and coordination. I don't mind TTTs early in a race when teams are at full strength and the stage is short because that minimizes their effect on the GC. Yeah, they're a bit boring, but you could say the same about most sprint stages.

Isn't it a rule that a TTT can't be too late in a race? Remember the issue a couple of years ago when they had a TTT on stage 9 of the Tour?

I think for a GT they have to do in the first week or get special permission for it later. Don't know if there's a rule for a one week race though.