UCI targeted riders (bio passport)

Page 4 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
A

Anonymous

Guest
Alpe d'Huez said:
I can't honestly believe there are people out there that really think that the majority of riders are clean, and the UCI is doing a good job, and that this so-called biological passport program is the best possible way to test, and will succeed.

What sport have you guys been watching???

It's not my position to insult anyone. I have just posted time and time again my reasoning, with link after link after link to various peer reviewed reports, studies and cases, and I'm just not going to do it here. You're going to have to dig through the many other threads and posts on doping by myself and others, and do some of the same research on your own. If you want to ignore that and think the sport is clean and the UCI doing a great job, then well, all I can say is so be it.
what is the best possible way to test?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
jackhammer111 said:
what is the best possible way to test?
You are one lazy debater. Instead of addressing anything, you just continue to question. What a complete waste of intellect you appear to be.
 
Mar 19, 2009
832
0
0
luckyboy said:
They just transfuse their own blood to up the hematocrit and then microdose something (what is it - hemopure now?) increase the retics don't they?

I'm no expert - just what I've kinda picked up :eek:
Hematocrit is the amount of the blood red cells take up. So if you increase the plasma volume of the blood then the portion of the blood red cells account for decreases. It can be done with plasma expanders which are used in medicine to replace blood fluid in cases of shock, like in surgery. Also saline infusion is the most simple method to decrease hematocrit.
 
Mar 18, 2009
2,442
0
0
Hematocrit = packed cell volume. This is basically the percentage of red blood cells. As luckyboy said, the hematocrit can be artificially reduced by expanding the intravascular volume with either crystalloids (eg., saline) or colloids (eg., plasma).

Oxygen-carrying capacity is dependent on hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is only carried by red blood cells. Hemoglobin, and hence oxygen-carrying capacity, can only be increased by increasing the number of red blood cells (hence EPO and blood transfusions). There are products, such as Oxyglobin, which are artificial substances which allow sufficient oxygen-carrying capacity with a hematocrit as low as 2%. Rasmussen was implicated in using a similar product.

Reticulocytes are immature red blood cells. They are produced in the bone marrow to replace dead and dying red blood cells in circulation. Increased reticulocyte counts are a normal response to anemia, or low red blood cells. They are decreased with cancer and problems with EPO production, such as exogenous EPO (ie, doping) suppressing normal EPO production by the kidneys.
 
Epicycle said:
Hematocrit is the amount of the blood red cells take up. So if you increase the plasma volume of the blood then the portion of the blood red cells account for decreases. It can be done with plasma expanders which are used in medicine to replace blood fluid in cases of shock, like in surgery. Also saline infusion is the most simple method to decrease hematocrit.
Oh, I got Hbg & Hct mixed up :eek:
 
Good posts.

Dynepo would be preferable for doping, and what Rasmussen was highly suspect of using. Other likely human identical EPO currently in development would be used the same. Or advanced near-human identical synthetics like Hematide or Hemomer currently in trials would be good candidates for microdosing. Same with Hemopure I suppose. A lot of people don't realize that some types of EPO are much easier to detect than others. And even though Dynepo is human identical, in large enough doses the testers can determine it's use.

Keep in mind you can't detect HGH*, IGF-1, and other O2 biogeneric/biosimilar carriers, plus PFCEs, HBOCs, even a lot of corticoids and a whole lot of other stuff are nearly impossible to detect.

I only know little about from what I pick up from the fringe, and medical friends, and being a good student, but maybe BigBoat, Elapid, Epi or others can verify, or refute.

*See my next post.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Originally Posted by OctaBech
Google translated from Danish to English

Epicycle said:
I think you are getting confused here. You microdose EPO to avoid EPO tests. Microdoses can leave the body in as little as 6 hours. It makes no difference whether the EPO is in a blood bag or taken IV. The transfusion is given IV.

He was on CERA. If you are on an undetectable type of EPO and able to take large doses it might increase retics enough to foil the passport.
he was just showing me where he saw what what kohl supposedly said.

i noticed something else in that article i found interesting.

Michael Ashenden, who one think by what's been said here could walk on water is mentioned as "one of UCI's experts on the biological passport"
 
May 11, 2009
248
0
0
As I understood it from this article posted on Cycling News, the list of 50 riders is a list of riders they will be specifically targeting for extra testing during the Tour De France. The list will include riders at the top of the sport who are expected to be contending for victory in the Tour De France, but being on the list does not mean that they are one of the riders with suspect blood values under the new biological passport system. Riders with suspect blood values are expected to be announced separately this week, with the UCI leaving it up to the national federations and teams to decide whether to impose sanctions on the riders.
 
I made a mistake in my last post. There actually is a test for HGH, but my understanding is that it's only effective within several hours after being administered in relatively high doses. So testers would have to get really lucky I guess to find someone positive, which is why no one has yet. Too tired to dig up links.
 
Mar 18, 2009
14,634
3
0
The cool thing about the UCI warning those who are suspicious is that it tells all the others they have some head room to increase their doping programs. :)
 
Mar 19, 2009
1,311
0
0
Leaving it up to the national feds I see.... eh he he he

...get an official Kazachstani... slap in the wrist! LOL
 
May 30, 2009
109
0
0
Epicycle said:
I think you are getting confused here. You microdose EPO to avoid EPO tests. Microdoses can leave the body in as little as 6 hours. It makes no difference whether the EPO is in a blood bag or taken IV. The transfusion is given IV.

He was on CERA. If you are on an undetectable type of EPO and able to take large doses it might increase retics enough to foil the passport.
I'm not the least confused, but you may need to re-read the article and look at it in the context its content was debated. :p

Then perhaps you wouldn't tell me things which I've already written.

Let's look away from the "increase retics" during a race blooper.

jackhammer111 said:
Originally Posted by OctaBech
Google translated from Danish to English



he was just showing me where he saw what what kohl supposedly said.

i noticed something else in that article i found interesting.

Michael Ashenden, who one think by what's been said here could walk on water is mentioned as "one of UCI's experts on the biological passport"
Really? Perhaps it's due to his critique of Armstrong and the UCI. :D But then it's quite surprising the Bio-passport is so much under fire considering he was the father of the ideas behind it(Damsgaard's program is on the edge of plagiarism).

Anyway it makes my reply to the next quote much easier. :)

elapid said:
Hematocrit = packed cell volume. This is basically the percentage of red blood cells. As luckyboy said, the hematocrit can be artificially reduced by expanding the intravascular volume with either crystalloids (eg., saline) or colloids (eg., plasma).

Oxygen-carrying capacity is dependent on hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is only carried by red blood cells. Hemoglobin, and hence oxygen-carrying capacity, can only be increased by increasing the number of red blood cells (hence EPO and blood transfusions). There are products, such as Oxyglobin, which are artificial substances which allow sufficient oxygen-carrying capacity with a hematocrit as low as 2%. Rasmussen was implicated in using a similar product.

Reticulocytes are immature red blood cells. They are produced in the bone marrow to replace dead and dying red blood cells in circulation. Increased reticulocyte counts are a normal response to anemia, or low red blood cells. They are decreased with cancer and problems with EPO production, such as exogenous EPO (ie, doping) suppressing normal EPO production by the kidneys.
You need to come with more up to date methods to escape the biological passport. Here's what Dr. Ashenden had to say about Oxyglobin:

“They’re quite easily detectable,” he said, pointing out that human blood plasma is clear or straw-colored, while Hemopure and Oxyglobin, which would separate out similarly in a centrifuge, are red. If a simple sight exam during a centrifuge didn’t suffice, the molecules themselves are considerably larger than any other kind of cell found in human blood because they must be stabilized with cross-linked polymers - free haemoglobin is very fragile and collapses without this support. Under a microscope, they’d stand out easily. But mostly, said Ashenden, the purported oxygen transport capabilities never materialized.

“I don’t think athletes got the results they expected with them,” he said. Indeed, one reason that HBOCs fell by the wayside is that they just didn’t work all that well (which in no way diminishes the serious nature of the allegations). They also have a short lifetime in the body, meaning you’d have to constantly dope during a race - always a risky scenario as races feature more testing. The low return and high risk of detection conspired to mostly end their use by 2004, he thinks, not long after blood doping came back into vogue.


What simplify the scenario too much and should at least have mention that the passport not alone trace the density of red blood cells but also covers reticulocytes and haemoglobin.

The cheaters have had it too easy for a long time but the methods mentioned are only viable with the loft values UCI set.The passport complicates doping a lot more because one will need to know the rider's values at the given time and the traced values/longitudinal graphs in the past.

That practically makes it impossible for the riders themselves to manipulate the stored blood to emulate the needed values to hide the transfusion.

Even a dedicated doctor will need equipment to first read the current values or direct access the the passport values for then to manipulate the blood which also takes equipment and the risky act of bringing them.

So the whole problem with cheating the biological passport is all the extra work one will have to put into it and the much minimized gain, the riders will have to be rich before being able to dope.

It becomes even less viable to cheat with the 8 year retro testing.

Alpe d'Huez said:
I made a mistake in my last post. There actually is a test for HGH, but my understanding is that it's only effective within several hours after being administered in relatively high doses. So testers would have to get really lucky I guess to find someone positive, which is why no one has yet. Too tired to dig up links.
LOL Thank god you corrected yourself, I almost thought I had entered a time machine with all this outdated knowledge. :)

I think there's a function in Google allowing one to sort away articles older than a year.

On a more serious note, the biggest problem with HGH has been the lack of out of competition test.

Though the passport can't directly identify HGH it does show the altered hormone ratio/(im)balance caused which allows for targeting the expensive HGH tests(luckily cheaper urine testing can soon become the norm).
 
OctaBech said:
The cheaters have had it too easy for a long time but the methods mentioned are only viable with the loft values UCI set.The passport complicates doping a lot more because one will need to know the rider's values at the given time and the traced values/longitudinal graphs in the past.

That practically makes it impossible for the riders themselves to manipulate the stored blood to emulate the needed values to hide the transfusion.
And yet riders continue to cheat the system, or the UCI is controlling the names of the riders that have failed to avoid scandal, which in concecuence beats the purpose of the "biological passport".
 
Mar 18, 2009
2,442
0
0
OctaBech said:
What simplify the scenario too much and should at least have mention that the passport not alone trace the density of red blood cells but also covers reticulocytes and haemoglobin.
Any complete blood count will give you this information. Nothing magic about it. However, the passport does not include total hemoglobin volume which is one of the most effective techniques to detect doping because it cannot be manipulated. Hemoglobin and hematocrit can be manipulated.

OctaBech said:
The cheaters have had it too easy for a long time but the methods mentioned are only viable with the loft values UCI set.
Lofty values. UCI. You make me laugh.

OctaBech said:
The passport complicates doping a lot more because one will need to know the rider's values at the given time and the traced values/longitudinal graphs in the past.

That practically makes it impossible for the riders themselves to manipulate the stored blood to emulate the needed values to hide the transfusion.
Not impossible at all. That's what they're doing. Kohl stated that he used the passport results to manipulate his counts to beat doping controls.

OctaBech said:
So the whole problem with cheating the biological passport is all the extra work one will have to put into it and the much minimized gain, the riders will have to be rich before being able to dope.
You are correct. The rich riders can afford the better programs. The poorer riders get caught. Look at the reported costs for Ullrich's and Hamilton's programs. I forget the actual figures, but it was something like 30,000 euros per month. A new professional rider now gets low 20,000 euros per year. That's why so many of us don't like the current state of affairs, because current doping practices change racing results whereas the days of cortisone, amphetamines and perhaps testosterone probably did not change the overall order of results. The strongest rider still won pre-early 1990s. Now the richest rider with the best doctors and best programs win, and they're not necessarily the strongest rider.

OctaBech said:
I think there's a function in Google allowing one to sort away articles older than a year.

On a more serious note, the biggest problem with HGH has been the lack of out of competition test.

Though the passport can't directly identify HGH it does show the altered hormone ratio/(im)balance caused which allows for targeting the expensive HGH tests(luckily cheaper urine testing can soon become the norm).
Firstly, nothing wrong with older papers and evidence. No need to limit searches to the last 12 months. That's probably why you have such a rosy view of the UCI. You haven't dug into their corrupt past.

Secondly, you stated in a previous post that I (or someone else) do not provide adequate evidence to support my (or our) statements. Well, your information on HGH is not supported by any evidence. Please live by your words and provide evidence to support these statements.
 
Mar 18, 2009
14,634
3
0
Dekker_Tifosi said:
The fun begins

Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta states that Denis Mencov, Ivan Basso, Franco Pellizotti and (already caught) Antonio Colom are on the list of riders with suspected blood values
Even though I like Pellizotti, this does not surprise me. He and Di Luca had a big mid career step up in performance.

The real fun will begin once we start hearing excuses. Those are always good for a laugh.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
BroDeal said:
Even though I like Pellizotti, this does not surprise me. He and Di Luca had a big mid career step up in performance.

The real fun will begin once we start hearing excuses. Those are always good for a laugh.
"It must have been the shots of Jack Daniels I had the night before the test......."
 
Mar 19, 2009
832
0
0
BroDeal said:
Even though I like Pellizotti, this does not surprise me. He and Di Luca had a big mid career step up in performance.

The real fun will begin once we start hearing excuses. Those are always good for a laugh.
An epidemic of chronic diarrhea and general dehydration.
 
Mar 19, 2009
1,311
0
0
The entire top 50 blood dopes big time with their frozen packed cells from the freezer (crypto preserved for up to 10 bloody years) and yet were getting this crap where nobody is being sanctioned but just "watched?" How is it fair that the Valverde is banned but not Lance?

I was super pis$ed 2 years ago when my favorite rider Vinokourov was taken away by police and treated like a criminal when others (who were going way faster) skated. Thats F-d up big time... Lance will make a mockery of the Tour especially without t top riders.. Damnn why cant that nice guy from Kazachstan race and kick Lances sorry a$$... With the blond hair and the yellow glasses. LOL
 
Dekker_Tifosi said:
The fun begins

Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta states that Denis Mencov, Ivan Basso, Franco Pellizotti and (already caught) Antonio Colom are on the list of riders with suspected blood values
Can you post the exact URL to that story, so I can plug it in to Google for their crazy translation of it? Thanks.
 
That would be something if Basso is on there, as he's posted a heap of data on his own site over the last several months. So it's going to be fascinating to look at his numbers, cross referenced with their numbers.

Are you serious or joking about Vino, BigB? I mean, the guy was a blatant doper, big time. Fun to watch though, I'll say that.

BroDeal said:
The real fun will begin once we start hearing excuses. Those are always good for a laugh.
Don't forget about the vanishing twin!
 
Mar 19, 2009
1,311
0
0
In 2007 I wasnt against dope and I didnt give a crap that Vino doped, and I was a huge fan of his. LOVED THE GUY and I knew damn well he was blood doped to the gills for his big TT win... and i loved it. I started posting on forums more often after that and I lost faith completely in pro cycling and its credibility.

If everybody is doped do not have controls period. If people die of heart attacks thats it, to bad so sad. I used to have sympathy and even a few months ago I was more against doping than for it, but now I dont give a CRAP. The UCI is corrupt and their testing is not to stop "cheating" its to make themselves more money. The drug testing/ bio passport is a combo if PR (public relations) and favoring of the big teams Like Lances Astana who pay them off. If Lance was total body hemoglobined his "*** would be grass" and he'd not be top 50 places in a Grand Tour... Why wont Lance get taken down? Ivan Basso blood dopes but Lance beats these riders clean... What a joke again.

Why do they have to select certain riders and leave others? WHY>>>> why why! I want Lances *** busted, humiliated and banned along with teh entire potential top 10. Or else have no dope controls at all and let everybody dope freely. Because if 20 come in over 50% nobody in the race is clean anyways, they'd just be dropped.

If Lance Armstrong wins the Tour its all for show like it was before...because if everybody was clean and doping didnt exist the man would not be top 40 places... If the uci was against dope they wouldnt have touched him with a 10 foot pole and the guy wouldnt be within 3,500 miles of the TDF.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY