USADA - Armstrong

[Hugh Januss]

As you say, the prospect of being cleared themselves will have been enticing. They obviously thought they were in real trouble. It does sit a little uneasy. With the guys we know spoke against him, it must be remembered that Landis volenteered to dope, before Bruyneel had asked him,, and Hamilton was doping before Armstrong was on the team, but it looks like Armstrong is going to be lined up as the fall guy for an era. He could be quite beastly to them at times, so he does deserve it you know....

This is going to put a black cloud over cycling for years to come. I can already feel the dread of the Eurosport commentators having to deal with this one at the Tour of Switzerland tomorrow.

Oh FFS. Just give it up already.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

No-one.

You think they should say no one won the tour from 1999 to 2005? This is "good for the sport"?

All the results of all the other tours should stay the same though, right?

 

[spalco]

Wow, bombshell, hahaha. What great news with the morning tea.

And it's especially hilarious that it's about stuff from 2009/2010. ****ing moron should've stayed retired.

 

[joe_papp]

Many, many, sore losers.

+1

You think they should say no one won the tour from 1999 to 2005? This is "good for the sport"?

All the results of all the other tours should stay the same though, right?

Several of us agree that any stripped Tour titles should just be vacated...

"@millardbaker, @nyvelocity idk how anyone could argue w/ a straight face that the 7 #tdf victories @lancearmstrong won (by being the best of the GC contenders) should be taken from him but then awarded to the runners-up, especially considering LA never officially failed an official doping control, while every other podium finisher (except Escartin?) either failed a drug test or returned a non-analytical positive (by being proved to have attempted to dope, for example). If you're going to take those hard-fought wins from Lance, just to award them to guys like Basso, Klodi, Vino, Ullrich...who didn't do anything different to earn them...c'mon, that makes a mockery of the Tour (and the sport!) and the titles should just be vacated." (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/hr2f02)

 

[dlwssonic]

All this dope speculation and talk is very bad for cycling.
I wonder when people will actually enjoy the sport instead of enjoying speculating in dope
7 years from now and the case is coming back.
A bit too late?

 

[TechnicalDescent]

All this dope speculation and talk is very bad for cycling.
I wonder when people will actually enjoy the sport instead of enjoying speculating in dope
7 years from now and the case is coming back.
A bit too late?

Choppy Warburton has a cold sweat today.

 

[fatsprintking]

As you say, the prospect of being cleared themselves will have been enticing. They obviously thought they were in real trouble. It does sit a little uneasy. With the guys we know spoke against him, it must be remembered that Landis volenteered to dope, before Bruyneel had asked him,, and Hamilton was doping before Armstrong was on the team, but it looks like Armstrong is going to be lined up as the fall guy for an era. He could be quite beastly to them at times, so he does deserve it you know....

This is going to put a black cloud over cycling for years to come. I can already feel the dread of the Eurosport commentators having to deal with this one at the Tour of Switzerland tomorrow.

Maybe it will be a black cloud, but cycling needs the truth to set itself free. If that means that the sport continues to take knocks to its credibility while it cleans its washing, then so be it.

The sports is still popular and the increase in cycling as a participation sport will continue regardless of what happens at the top level. I live in some hope however that Lance going down will allow a fresh start - me and 99% of people who really love the sport I suspect.

As for poor Lance the fallguy - How are Floyd, Tyler, Rumsas, Frigo et al travelling. At least they have paid something for their crimes. All I want is for the truth to be on the table and for lance to pay what is fair if he is guilty.

 

[Ferminal]

ROB ARNOLD: Until science can actually prove it then we have to assume that he is innocent.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2012/s3524904.htm

Ok Rob, so a USADA trial based on testimony would still not prove his guilt?

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Maybe it will be a black cloud, but cycling needs the truth to set itself free.

The truth always usually emerges over time. Armstrong's exploits would have dripped out down the years, just as we now know all about what people like Tommy Simson were doing in the 60s. A couple of decades from now, he probably would be quite open about it. It is only a sport after all. What Landis said about warning against demonising dopers as people is important. There does not to be perspective.

The reason that people close to the sport hate this type of thing so much is because it's such an energy sucker - David Harmon would rather pull his hair out than have to go over this tomorrow, but he would go over it because it now has to be done. But they know the important thing is changing the culture and the enviroment of the sport so it doesn't have to be like this. If that wasn't happening, and it tranparently is happening, then maybe it would be a different case, but there really aren't any grounds for wiping out 7 years of the tour simply because this guy rubs a lot of people up there wrong way.

 

[rata de sentina]

All this dope speculation and talk is very bad for cycling.

People with your blinkered mindset are the reason why we are in this situation in the first place. For start none of this is "speculation" so no wonder you're having trouble sweeping it under the carpet.

The best which can come out of this is not LAs demise although that wiill be sweet for many and it's not even if those backroomers like Ferrari and co get some well deserved pain. It will be if the UCI is stripped of any role in regulating anti-doping in cycling and a completely independent organisation gets this job. If this case provides the impetous for that then it will be a very very good thing for cycling.

 

[MarkvW]

Maybe it will be a black cloud, but cycling needs the truth to set itself free. If that means that the sport continues to take knocks to its credibility while it cleans its washing, then so be it.

The sports is still popular and the increase in cycling as a participation sport will continue regardless of what happens at the top level. I live in some hope however that Lance going down will allow a fresh start - me and 99% of people who really love the sport I suspect.

As for poor Lance the fallguy - How are Floyd, Tyler, Rumsas, Frigo et al travelling. At least they have paid something for their crimes. All I want is for the truth to be on the table and for lance to pay what is fair if he is guilty.

Cycling already has the truth, and everybody already is free--to microdose!

 

[fatsprintking]

The truth always usually emerges over time. Armstrong's exploits would have dripped out down the years, just as we now know all about what people like Tommy Simson were doing in the 60s. A couple of decades from now, he probably would be quite open about it. It is only a sport after all. What Landis said about warning against demonising dopers as people is important. There does not to be perspective.

The reason that people close to the sport hate this type of thing so much is because it's such an energy sucker - David Harmon would rather pull his hair out than have to go over this tomorrow, but he would go over it because it now has to be done. But they know the important thing is changing the culture and the enviroment of the sport so it doesn't have to be like this. If that wasn't happening, and it tranparently is happening, then maybe it would be a different case, but there really aren't any grounds for wiping out 7 years of the tour simply because this guy rubs a lot of people up there wrong way.

Yeah well I don't give a **** about David Harmon and what he wants to talk about. To me this is like the Catholic church and the abuse of children (and I say that with the full sympathy to those impacted on by it and in no way seek to be melodramatic).

In the end the truth is the truth and regardless of the impact there is an obligation to get to the bottom of what occurred. Sure it would be easier if the past was the past, but the recovery of the sport requires a degree of openness that needs to start with Lance.

Replay his speach at the end of his 7th win - If the evidence shows he was full of **** then he deserves everything that is coming and more.

 

[DirtyWorks]

but there really aren't any grounds for wiping out 7 years of the tour simply because this guy rubs a lot of people up there wrong way.

Oh, yes there are. Don't forget that the Yellow Jersey has been kicked out of the event for the suspicion of doping. Contador's win passed to a Schleck. Even ASO will give this a look and consider altering the record. No one *wants* to wake the dead, but if more damning news breaks, it only looks worse for Team Wonderboy.

If they don't do anything it calls into question the entire premise of the game. No matter what, the legitimacy of the UCI should be questioned again. Yet, just like a zombie, it lives on.

 

[kukiniloa]

Maybe it will be a black cloud, but cycling needs the truth to set itself free. If that means that the sport continues to take knocks to its credibility while it cleans its washing, then so be it.

The sports is still popular and the increase in cycling as a participation sport will continue regardless of what happens at the top level. I live in some hope however that Lance going down will allow a fresh start - me and 99% of people who really love the sport I suspect.

As for poor Lance the fallguy - How are Floyd, Tyler, Rumsas, Frigo et al travelling. At least they have paid something for their crimes. All I want is for the truth to be on the table and for lance to pay what is fair if he is guilty.

You may be right, and we need to "clear the air". But, for the sake of argument, wouldn't it be appropriate to vacate all results from that period of time - say 1988-2008 ought to do it, right? Wouldn't that ultimately be "fair".

Of course, given whatever due process that there is in the USA and EU countries that will never happen.

And, the reach of this specific issue goes beyond cycling now into professional triathlons. It is not much of a leap to speculate that this sport is similarly "infected" as cycling has been and is "infected".

I've been reflecting on the response to cyclingnews.com's post about the WP article on Facebook. Perhaps 80% of comments speak dismissively and derogatively about the USADA action. Some 50% of such negative comments consider it to be too late to do anything about LA's "alleged" doping, and that it is old news, etc., failing to consider that LA is still competing - successfully. He may very well have won the Ironman WC this October. Many of these, thus, are specious arguments. The remainder of the negative commenters seem to be in denial, which I find especially curious.

While this is speculation, I think that many of the deniers are triathletes, or American cycling fans who just don't understand what happened to this beautiful sport.

In conclusion, I think it rather likely that the professional triathlon circuit is similarly "infected", and doping in this sport is rampant. The lack of controls such as blood passport would be evidence of this.

 

[fatsprintking]

You may be right, and we need to "clear the air". But, for the sake of argument, wouldn't it be appropriate to vacate all results from that period of time - say 1988-2008 ought to do it, right? Wouldn't that ultimately be "fair".

Of course, given whatever due process that there is in the USA and EU countries that will never happen.

And, the reach of this specific issue goes beyond cycling now into professional triathlons. It is not much of a leap to speculate that this sport is similarly "infected" as cycling has been and is "infected".

I've been reflecting on the response to cyclingnews.com's post about the WP article on Facebook. Perhaps 80% of comments speak dismissively and derogatively about the USADA action. Some 50% of such negative comments consider it to be too late to do anything about LA's "alleged" doping, and that it is old news, etc., failing to consider that LA is still competing - successfully. He may very well have won the Ironman WC this October. Many of these, thus, are specious arguments. The remainder of the negative commenters seem to be in denial, which I find especially curious.

While this is speculation, I think that many of the deniers are triathletes, or American cycling fans who just don't understand what happened to this beautiful sport.

In conclusion, I think it rather likely that the professional triathlon circuit is similarly "infected", and doping in this sport is rampant. The lack of controls such as blood passport would be evidence of this.

I think that there is some merit in at least discussing the possibility of all results from the epo period being wiped. I would love start hearing stories of riders who did not take drugs and were understood by other riders to be clean during this time, and I think starting from the presumption that almost all riders was dopped is one way of achieving this.

My feeling is that lance has been a few months too late with his ironman attempt as I am sure that he was trying to transition his support base in sport to triathlon and a win in Kona would have done this - looks like his marketing strategy is going to just fall short even though he has ben able to garner a huge amount of support from triathlon in a very short time.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Oh, yes there are. Don't forget that the Yellow Jersey has been kicked out of the event for the suspicion of doping. Contador's win passed to a Schleck. Even ASO will give this a look and consider altering the record. No one *wants* to wake the dead, but if more damning news breaks, it only looks worse for Team Wonderboy.

If they don't do anything it calls into question the entire premise of the game. No matter what, the legitimacy of the UCI should be questioned again. Yet, just like a zombie, it lives on.

There is a lot more evidence against the riders of that period who joined him on the podium than there is against Schleck. Maybe there could be a compromise where he is condemned for doping but they leave the results alone. That would seem more appropriate if it's really about moving the sport on, which I don't think it is...

 

[mikkemus23]

With interest and legal fees... Lanced raised it from 5 million to 7,5 million in the year or so he took to get paid... what about the 10 years it will take SCA to get their money back?

Wasn`t the point Armstrong used to his advantage that the contract didnt say anything about use of PEDs?

 

[Eusebio Kino]

+1



Several of us agree that any stripped Tour titles should just be vacated...

"@millardbaker, @nyvelocity idk how anyone could argue w/ a straight face that the 7 #tdf victories @lancearmstrong won (by being the best of the GC contenders) should be taken from him but then awarded to the runners-up, especially considering LA never officially failed an official doping control, while every other podium finisher (except Escartin?) either failed a drug test or returned a non-analytical positive (by being proved to have attempted to dope, for example). If you're going to take those hard-fought wins from Lance, just to award them to guys like Basso, Klodi, Vino, Ullrich...who didn't do anything different to earn them...c'mon, that makes a mockery of the Tour (and the sport!) and the titles should just be vacated." (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/hr2f02)

Likely, the best course to take as far as the era, 1991-2005 is let sleeping dogs lie, let the big European results stand. The properly stored doping samples from that era tested with today's technology, yikes! I am not just speaking about the current fall guy Armstrong either! If the USADA has an issue with Mr. Armstrongs' comeback 2.0, well that is an issue. Let that guy compete in Tris though, it has nothing to do with cycling! Going back to all those bad *** Tours, Giros, Vueltas, Roubaixs, Flanders, Worlds' Olympics is just one ugly, ugly pandoras box of blackness. For the sake of cycling acknowledge it, and let it go. USADA wants to bring back the Black Plague?

 

[kukiniloa]

There is a lot more evidence against the riders of that period who joined him on the podium than there is against Schleck. Maybe there could be compromise where he is condemned for doping but they leave the results alone. That would seem more appropriate if it's really about moving the sport on, which I don't think it is...

What's it about then? A turf war in the professional triathlon circuit?

And why didn't the feds press their case? Is it because it would taint the name brand image of US Postal? Or maybe because the Clemens case was a waste of time and money?

Yes, I do think that the argument that the Federal Government should have better things to do is legitimate.

 

[MarkvW]

Wasn`t the point Armstrong used to his advantage that the contract didnt say anything about use of PEDs?

More than that, I would expect that Lance's lawyers wrote the settlement agreement so that it was REALLY final and neither party can reopen it for any reason. But some people are so attached to the hope that SCA is going to sue Lance all over again.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

With Landis on a fraud charge, I think the crediblity really now rests with Hincapie and others testifying against. The only hope for Armstrong could be that they will crack, now that this case has effectly gone public.

 

[MacRoadie]

USA Today: "Brennan: Armstrong has no room to whine"

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colu...ef=.T9l8bw9yw-w.like&fb_source=home_multiline

 

[TechnicalDescent]

What's it about then? A turf war in the professional triathlon circuit?

The USADA have been trying to get Armstrong for many years. The tone and style of the letter will be rather otherworldly to outsiders. It presents a cyclist who doped during a period when there was loads of doping in cycling, including all the riders that were let off for talking, seem like a gangster crime mafia boss. By the end of reading it you can't read the letter without wondering if he will get the death penalty. They might have played into his hands a bit by presenting it in that way, and seeming to want to wipe him out of the history books altogether in a quite unprecidented way.

So I'm saying it's about Armstrong himself, not about helping clean teams and riders, or "facing the truth" or any of that hippyish mumbojumbo. The guy just has this incredibly negative effect on his enemies. I've never seen anything like it before.

 

[fatsprintking]

So I'm saying it's about Armstrong himself, not about helping clean teams and riders, or "facing the truth" or any of that hippyish mumbojumbo. The guy just has this incredibly negative effect on his enemies. I've never seen anything like it before.

Yeah well you reap what you sow or some other hippy mumbojumbo. Hopefully you wont see anything like it again. That Lance - He's one of a kind.

 

[MarkvW]

USA Today: "Brennan: Armstrong has no room to whine"

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colu...ef=.T9l8bw9yw-w.like&fb_source=home_multiline

I think we'll see a lot more like this. The lawyers for the newspapers are going to be less and less afraid of an Armstrong defamation lawsuit.