USPS Spending (ESPN article)

[mikeNphilly]

nevermind someone posted it for ya...delete this thread...sorry about that...thanks

 

[Anonymous]

yeh it is, twice.. we are pretty on the ball around here.

But, it probably deserved its own thread anyway.

 

[Polish]

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=6019436

Not sure this mentioned anywhere on the board, it says the aricle was updated an hour ago, so I doubt it.

The Whistle Blower aspect is fascinating...

It is like Karen Silkwood dumping radioactive waste into a river, and then blowing the whistle on the power plant for dumping radioactive waste into a river.

In essence, Tailwind will have to prove that Floyd did not dope....

Seems Floyd has already done most of the legwork there lol.
PowerPoint Presentation - done
Hacking the LNND Computers - done

Positively false!

 

[mwbyrd]

nevermind someone posted it for ya...delete this thread...sorry about that...thanks

Nothing really earth shattering except we know how much LA made vs. Tyler in the one tour.

It's easy to talk about how much US Postal paid, but what kind of return on their investment did they get? I'm sure it was WAY more than what they were paying.

As for the Morals clause, it basically says 'Only if you get caught'....And if they try to say what went on 6 years ago was detrimental, I'm sure they'll quickly argue the US Postal Service ROI was way more than they were paid and after all, no one tested positive so there was no contract dispute.

 

[sniper]

The Whistle Blower aspect is fascinating...

It is like Karen Silkwood dumping radioactive waste into a river, and then blowing the whistle on the power plant for dumping radioactive waste into a river.

In essence, Tailwind will have to prove that Floyd did not dope....

Seems Floyd has already done most of the legwork there lol.
PowerPoint Presentation - done
Hacking the LNND Computers - done

Positively false!

And that several of its directors weren't in on it.

 

[D-Queued]

And that several of its directors weren't in on it.

Setting: An Austin house with sprinklers galore spraying water everywhere:

Someone vaguely resembling a cycling geek: Ok, let me get this straight. If someone asks me if I was a director, I should duck, not remember, or otherwise pretend I don't know anything - is that right?

Someone vaguely resembling some guy named Herman: That'll do it champ.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

Setting: An Austin house with sprinklers galore spraying water everywhere:

Someone vaguely resembling a cycling geek: Ok, let me get this straight. If someone asks me if I was a director, I should duck, not remember, or otherwise pretend I don't know anything - is that right?

Someone vaguely resembling some guy named Herman: That'll do it champ.

Dave.

It's big.

There's some massive bonuses going on there. 1.47m for a stage wins? You are kidding me? and only 150k for Tyler.

After all that they still needed fat wall st guys ro invest in Tailwind and Tailwind still lost money?

Where did all that money go. No wonder the execs at USPS are shunting it.

Someone is hiding the truth.....

Did anyone else notice the Tailwind address changes on every statement.

 

[MacRoadie]

There's some massive bonuses going on there. 1.47m for a stage win? You are kidding me? and only 150k for Tyler.

It's just a poorly-written sentence. The $1.47M was the total bonus for the combined stage wins, yellow jerseys and the overall.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/mag/blog/2011/thefile/armstrong/lance_big.jpg

However, if you assume that the USPS sponsorship represented 65% of the Tailwind budget for 2001, and their contribution was $6.1M, then that puts the overall team budget at $10M.

Armstrong's Tour bonuses alone (not including his salary) accounted for nearly 15% of the total annual budget.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Nothing really earth shattering except we know how much LA made vs. Tyler in the one tour.

Not true. The USPS appears to have given up all pretenses of defending their side of the story. That's a giant clue that senior people at USPS had to change position. Why is not known. We do know the average manager doesn't just capitulate when their career is on the line. So, something meaningful happened and it's working 100% against Team Pharmstrong.

It's easy to talk about how much US Postal paid, but what kind of return on their investment did they get? I'm sure it was WAY more than what they were paying.

As for the Morals clause, it basically says 'Only if you get caught'....And if they try to say what went on 6 years ago was detrimental, I'm sure they'll quickly argue the US Postal Service ROI was way more than they were paid and after all, no one tested positive so there was no contract dispute.

It remains to be seen what happens. I think there are many more unpleasant revelations coming before the USPS lawyers are called in to examine their options. Early days yet.

 

[DirtyWorks]

After all that they still needed fat wall st guys ro invest in Tailwind and Tailwind still lost money?

Where did all that money go.

That money went into principal's pockets somehow. This is where the articles of incorporation for Tailwind would give an outsider some clues. If it's a well-done set of articles, then Tailwind would be the first of a probable chain of liability shelters to untangle.

Remember too, this is not like household accounting. Who gets what part of the income depends entirely on how the deal/corporation is structured. It would not be the first time the fat wall st. guys got in a bad deal. Legal? Probably. It would be fun if it wasn't. If it was, that kind of regulatory enforcement is just not likely.

Some corporations are set up by design to never, ever show a profit except in a most unlikely event. Tailwind might be one of them.

 

[BotanyBay]

It is like Karen Silkwood dumping radioactive waste into a river, and then blowing the whistle on the power plant for dumping radioactive waste into a river.

Sorry Polish, THAT'S funny.

 

[thehog]

That money went into principal's pockets somehow. This is where the articles of incorporation for Tailwind would give an outsider some clues. If it's a well-done set of articles, then Tailwind would be the first of a probable chain of liability shelters to untangle.

Remember too, this is not like household accounting. Who gets what part of the income depends entirely on how the deal/corporation is structured. It would not be the first time the fat wall st. guys got in a bad deal. Legal? Probably. It would be fun if it wasn't. If it was, that kind of regulatory enforcement is just not likely.

Some corporations are set up by design to never, ever show a profit except in a most unlikely event. Tailwind might be one of them.

....and the junior team?

 

[PotentialPro]

ESPN Document

I went and read this all over again and focused on the document a bit more. Not only does Weisel and Gorski required to make appearances but many other stipulations are there to support specific make ups, teams, races and the like. However what I found most interesting is what could be a motivation to bribery of the UCI. If a rider on the team was found guilty of a doping offense, USPS could take action within 30 days. With anywhere from 3-8 million dollars at stake, what better way to cross your t's than cover your bases with the UCI so that no offense would ever see the light of day.

 

[BotanyBay]

....and the junior team?

I can't recall ever seeing a Junior team during those years. Unless Lance has a name for his pecker, and that name is Junior. The strippers could (in theory) be a team.

 

[oldschoolnik]

....and the junior team?

You know when I read this I thought "damn, did USPS have a junior team?" But - you would think there would be someone who has to stamp an invoice or something wold ask "hey did they fulfill this Junior team thing? I gotta pay this invoice.

 

[DirtyWorks]

....and the junior team?

Hog,

Remember the class of human are we talking about here. Weisel? Stapleton? The leaders of the federation the Junior team is organized under are the same people making money off the USPS deal.

According to a press release I found, the $400,000 went to Weisel's other team, USAC's junior program. It seems clear now that Weisel is using the Federation member resources to funnel racers through Tailwind. Then he gets a piece of the Tailwind action. Don't take me too literally, because even if Tailwind reports a net-loss, that may be by design. Without the articles of incorporation, it's impossible to know where money went.

 

[MacRoadie]

....and the junior team?

So, the argument from the fan boys is that you can't claim fraud because there's no way to place an actual value on the benefit enjoyed by the USPS as a result of the sponsorship.

That could possibly hold true for that portion of the sponsorship that was applied to the Pro Tour team. Was the value of the advertising exposure equal to or greater than the capital committment? That's difficult to prove or disprove.

If, however, a certain amount of the sponsorship was contractually stipulated to be spent on a junior team, apart from the Pro Tour squad (and arguably for the betterment of the sport, development of young riders, and not for advertising purposes), can the same argument be applied?

Can the USPS/Uncle Sam claim that the portion of the sponsorship specifically earmaked by contract for a junior team was not used for that purpose, and therefore was a breach of contract?

Thoughts?

 

[Polish]

There's some massive bonuses going on there. 1.47m for a stage wins? You are kidding me? and only 150k for Tyler.
.

1.47mil a Massive bonus?

Compared to what? Average salary of a Clinic Poster?

1.47mil is diddly squat for a Top Pro Athlete.

The NFL's neo-pro / rookie class of 2010 signed for $1.2 Billion.
With a B. Billion$
256 rookies, you can do the maths.
$1.2 Billion is more than ALL Pro cyclist contracts combined.
By a longshot lol.

US Gov spent 7mil a year on the USPS Team?
Diddlysquat again. $350mil gets you an average NBA Team.
US Gov spends 100mil plus on TV commercials I bet....

It should be a CRIME that Lance was paid so little.
Of course, no crime. $1.47 mil is not a crime. sigh

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...ll-we-can-and-will-reach-an-agreement-on-cba-

 

[Merckx index]

It's easy to talk about how much US Postal paid, but what kind of return on their investment did they get? I'm sure it was WAY more than what they were paying.

Oh, for sure. After all, the vast majority of Americans at that time had never heard of the U.S. Post Office. Everyone was using UPS or FedEx at that time.
Then suddenly, after LA wins a few Tours, tens of millions of people say, hey, did you know there's another way to send our mail? And we're going to use that way--without even bothering to compare to the alternatives with regard to time and expense--because, hey, Lance is famous, and if a famous person is being supported by the Post Office, we will use the Post Office.

With these millions of new customers and billions of new sales of stamps, the P.O. got a huge return on their money. Which was very important, because like other government institutions, their goal is to maximize profits. That's why economic times in the U.S, are so rosy now, because government institutions really know how to maximize their profits. At least the P.O. does. I hope they're giving seminars explaining how easy it is to do it.

 

[Siriuscat]

1.47mil a Massive bonus?

Compared to what? Average salary of a Clinic Poster?

1.47mil is diddly squat for a Top Pro Athlete.

The NFL's neo-pro / rookie class of 2010 signed for $1.2 Billion.
With a B. Billion$
256 rookies, you can do the maths.
$1.2 Billion is more than ALL Pro cyclist contracts combined.
By a longshot lol.

US Gov spent 7mil a year on the USPS Team?
Diddlysquat again. $350mil gets you an average NBA Team.
US Gov spends 100mil plus on TV commercials I bet....

It should be a CRIME that Lance was paid so little.
Of course, no crime. $1.47 mil is not a crime. sigh

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...ll-we-can-and-will-reach-an-agreement-on-cba-

Get a grip.....put this in cycling terms not NBA/NFL/MLB/NHL and in cycling terms this is rediculous when you look at some racers on less than $40K thats the grim bit about it....its pure greed

 

[runninboy]

Oh, for sure. After all, the vast majority of Americans at that time had never heard of the U.S. Post Office. Everyone was using UPS or FedEx at that time.
Then suddenly, after LA wins a few Tours, tens of millions of people say, hey, did you know there's another way to send our mail? And we're going to use that way--without even bothering to compare to the alternatives with regard to time and expense--because, hey, Lance is famous, and if a famous person is being supported by the Post Office, we will use the Post Office.

With these millions of new customers and billions of new sales of stamps, the P.O. got a huge return on their money. Which was very important, because like other government institutions, their goal is to maximize profits. That's why economic times in the U.S, are so rosy now, because government institutions really know how to maximize their profits. At least the P.O. does. I hope they're giving seminars explaining how easy it is to do it.

I just saw this article looks like the spin has been going overtime
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news;_ylt=ArxdcBt8XMjBCNNpuoWG80J.grcF?slug=ap-doping-armstrong

What makes me sick is how do they set the value? they are marketing firms that supposedly did this study.
Now as u mentioned people were already using the USPS, while some dolt might believe this tripe about"value" it only exists when it has some sort of applicability in sales.
Did Postal revenues rise by this amount? How much could be directly attributable to the marketing?
ALSO and this is a big ALSO
when the USPS was marketing the team to the general public, on TV for instance, did this come out of the USPS team budget?
Extremly doubtful as air time and the cost of making commercials runs into quite a bit of money. This is my chosen profession. And it is not unusual to have to pay half a million to make a 30 second spot. Then think of all the network tv spots where time is grossly expensive.
I am sure these commercials would have eaten alive the entire team budget in short order.
So how can u claim marketing value when you used a seperate entity to market? Typical show biz diversion. Pay all the money out of one company which "loses" money, then a seperate one to show profit where it can be spread around.
Also how are they quantifying the value of said exposure? Lets say they make their USPS commercials featuring LA and part of the value is they dont pay LA any fee for appearing. Now i would imagine they could argue a similiar "celebrity" endorsement could cost them a million dollars, and it is easy to see how puffed up the "value" of the team could be.
In addition maybe LA was not paid for the commercial but in another dept maybe USPS put on a Livestrong event and funded it totally, or simply made a donation. Are these business monies subtracted from the value?
just alot of questions...

 

[Polish]

Get a grip.....put this in cycling terms not NBA/NFL/MLB/NHL and in cycling terms this is rediculous when you look at some racers on less than $40K thats the grim bit about it....its pure greed

Yes, Lance is greedy lol.

Greedy in a sport with crappy pay lol again.

But c'mon - the winner of the TdF should be paid more than the rider making the minimum wage. A lot more. Duh.

And again, $1.47mil is a relatively small bonus for winning the TdF.
Heck, Lance has been getting paid $2mil a year just to show up at the TdU.

BTW, the US Government received mucho benefit from their investment in the USPS Team:

Studies commissioned by the United States Postal Service estimated the agency received at least three times the value of the $32 million spent sponsoring Lance Armstrong's cycling teams during their heyday.

Obtained by The Associated Press, reports by a pair of marketing firms covering 2001-2004 state the USPS received $103.6 million in domestic value from sponsoring the Armstrong-led teams during his historic run of Tour de France wins from 1999 to 2005

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110114/ap_on_sp_ot/cyc_doping_armstrong

 

[Race Radio]

BTW, the US Government received mucho benefit from their investment in the USPS Team:

Nope.

According to a February 2003 USPS Inspector General (OIG) report, the objective of the sponsorship was to "increase revenue and sales of Postal Service's products on a global basis and to increase sales in key international markets" with a specific monetary goal of increasing [annual international] revenue by $20 million. However, despite the cycling team's outstanding performance and extremely high profile, revenues from USPS international operations in 2003 were actually $12.8 million less than four- years earlier in 1999

The recent $40 million sponsorship contract with the team "does not include the costs associated with sending postal executives and their spouses on junkets to the Tour De France as they have done in the past," said Leslie K. Paige, director of special projects for CAGW, in a statement. Paige continued that the USPS offers "no verifiable evidence" that these sponsorships raise brand awareness in Europe while generating $19 million in annual revenue

“Postal officials routinely pedal the line that sponsorship of the cycling team raises ‘brand awareness’ in Europe and results in $19 million in revenue annually. Yet, they present no verifiable evidence of this and, according to the IG report, fail to quantify any impact to the bottom line with any of its sports sponsorships. International sales account for only 2.6 percent of the USPS’ total revenue and anecdotal evidence suggests that the USPS’ performance in the international arena is substandard. Congress, the Presidential Reform Commission, and the USPS Board of Governors ought to put the brakes on these wasteful expenditures,” Paige said.

* thanks to Mac for the research

 

[Race Radio]

I had a friend who raced on Postal who told me that he had been told that the cost per rider was $27,000 per year. This did not include rider salaries just support staff, travel, etc. Basically everything to run the team.

At the time I think they had 23 riders so that would be $621,000 per year. That was in 2000 so I am sure it increased a lot by 2003. As for rider Salaries, most of the guys did not make much. Certainly not enough to add up to $10 million. Funny, one of the higher paid guys was VDV. He had great numbers and grew up in the sport so they saw him as the next big thing. I heard he made $400k, which caused a lot of jealousy within the team.

It sounds to me that Weisel et al found some suckers to put in some extra cash. Junior team for $400,000? Hahahaha. Funny stuff.

 

[mwbyrd]

Oh, for sure. After all, the vast majority of Americans at that time had never heard of the U.S. Post Office. Everyone was using UPS or FedEx at that time.
Then suddenly, after LA wins a few Tours, tens of millions of people say, hey, did you know there's another way to send our mail? And we're going to use that way--without even bothering to compare to the alternatives with regard to time and expense--because, hey, Lance is famous, and if a famous person is being supported by the Post Office, we will use the Post Office.

With these millions of new customers and billions of new sales of stamps, the P.O. got a huge return on their money. Which was very important, because like other government institutions, their goal is to maximize profits. That's why economic times in the U.S, are so rosy now, because government institutions really know how to maximize their profits. At least the P.O. does. I hope they're giving seminars explaining how easy it is to do it.

Some exec decided it was worth the advertising exposure and they received plenty.

Now if you want to ask why the US POSTAL service thought it would be good to advertise in Europe? Who knows but I"m sure it was an MBA that made the decision.

As for waste, did you see the article yesterday about the cost overruns on the new F35 Fighter Jet. The 32 mil spent by US POSTAL was/is peanuts for the govt.

This whole Novitsky thing has to be about more than recouping Sponsorship dollars from 5-10 years ago.