Vaughters whining about lack of radios in Cali.....

[therhodeo]

Georges deserved that win and the peloton deserved to lose it. If you don't know the gap you suck in the break early and deal with it. I love cycling but I would love to see it shed all the remnants of the EPO/Disco era of completely calculated racing. No radios, no powermeters, no whining DS's. Anyone else agree or am I just being grumpy?

 

[theyoungest]

He wasn't whining about the lack of radios per se, but about the lack of time gaps, and incorrect time gaps. It's almost as if the racers are deliberately misinformed to ensure an unexpected outcome. That's not really professional, and I can understand if Vaughters ridicules it.

 

[El Pistolero]

Who cares, Tour of Cali would have been an even bigger joke if Sagan won 6 out of 8 stages.

 

[Fetisoff]

Link, please?

 

[therhodeo]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour-of-california/stage-6/results

Garmin-Barracuda manager Jonathan Vaughters was pleased with his team's performance, but indicated that without race radios, relying on race marshals for information was not always reliable.

"There was a little lack of information out there, which was a little disconcerting at times, but, whatever, the guys made up for it with strength," Vaughters said. "The problem is the guys were not getting accurate information from the on chalkboards, which is a pity, but you know it's a symptom of the regulation that bans race radio communications. Obviously a silly regulation. We wouldn't have won. It's great that [Georges] won the stage."

 

[Fetisoff]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour-of-california/stage-6/results

Thanks. Rather strange, since they didn't even manage to put anyone in the top-10 on that particular stage.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Georges deserved that win and the peloton deserved to lose it. If you don't know the gap you suck in the break early and deal with it. I love cycling but I would love to see it shed all the remnants of the EPO/Disco era of completely calculated racing. No radios, no powermeters, no whining DS's. Anyone else agree or am I just being grumpy?

1+, fully agree ...and don´t forget to mention Vaughters want to change cycling into show biz style like US pro sports. Hope he´ll lose the war with UCI, so that his "franchise cycling" dream never becomes reality. Sounds unbelievable now, but cycling would actually get worse if he wins the war with UCI.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Correct gooner. Pipo just think McQuaid is bad (which is true), but JV is worse. Can´t stand this guy anymore. Dubious past, never spoke really out (to save his a..). And know he want to destroy cycling completely. I watch cycling since the early 80s. No trains up the mountains, no powermeters, no computerized racing calculating at which time the break is caught, etc... It was man against man. Pure fascination. Imagine Roche with all that stuff on his body. We´d never have seen his ride in La Plagne 1987, b/c some shady DS would have told him "step back, your puls is too high, your W/KG is to high, we have calculated for you a TT-Time of xy tomorrow so you win the TdF by 18 seconds". That´s what JV likes, but not us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQojh-wqL04

 

[Libertine Seguros]

"There was a little lack of information out there, which was a little disconcerting at times, but, whatever, the guys made up for it with strength," Vaughters said. "The problem is the guys were not getting accurate information from the on chalkboards, which is a pity, but you know it's a symptom of the regulation that bans race radio communications. Obviously a silly regulation. We wouldn't have won. It's great that [Georges] won the stage."

Sylvain Georges, the new Pedro Delgado... so, will we still be discussing "The Stolen Big Bear Stage" 27 years on?

 

[zigmeister]

I agree with TS on this one. It is one thing having radios for some safety reasons. But now, the entire race is dictated from the car with a radio.

He is complaining about time gaps? Here is an idea Jonathan, how about instead of each and every stage being completely predictable, the race starts, about 7-8 guys jump off the front on a break away, then they just keep relaying by radio how far off the front they are, and then at a predictable point, they start the chase and real them in, you start chasing immediately and actually race from the gun?!?!? How is that racing when this is entirely orchestrated from a car or a race referee on a motorcycle with a girl holding a time gap board?!?!

I say, get rid of that garbage completely, lets get back to racing old style and the leaders team has to be aware ON THE ROAD and during the race wheat is going on around them and cover breaks etc...

That is what entirely happens in amateur racing. You see some guys going off the front, somebody better get to chasing, and the peloton better hit the power to bring it back in. Otherwise, they just ride away, and you are left wondering if you will ever catch them, or not. Nothing wrong with that. I applaud guys that can ride off the front of the group and sustain a break. Because I won't chase them, I'm a sprinter. I'm looking for other guys to cover and bring the group along back up to them. If that doesn't happen, well, no chance for me to compete for the sprint finish.

Now, the sprint teams, like Liquigas-Cannondale just wait for the 3-4 minute mark 30km out, and start to drill it to bring them in with the other sprint teams and GC leaders. The casually catch them to the KM almost it seems of where they want, to then setup a sprint finish.

It is your own fault if you don't give chase, or make a break and keep off the front. Not some race radios or race officials to dictate these things.

 

[Race Radio]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour-of-california/stage-6/results

Garmin-Barracuda manager Jonathan Vaughters was pleased with his team's performance, but indicated that without race radios, relying on race marshals for information was not always reliable.

"There was a little lack of information out there, which was a little disconcerting at times, but, whatever, the guys made up for it with strength," Vaughters said. "The problem is the guys were not getting accurate information from the on chalkboards, which is a pity, but you know it's a symptom of the regulation that bans race radio communications. Obviously a silly regulation. We wouldn't have won. It's great that [Georges] won the stage."

I must be missing something. This certainly does not sound like whining or pontificating?

 

[pedaling squares]

He was on the wrong continent anyway.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I agree with TS on this one. It is one thing having radios for some safety reasons. But now, the entire race is dictated from the car with a radio.

He is complaining about time gaps? Here is an idea Jonathan, how about instead of each and every stage being completely predictable, the race starts, about 7-8 guys jump off the front on a break away, then they just keep relaying by radio how far off the front they are, and then at a predictable point, they start the chase and real them in, you start chasing immediately and actually race from the gun?!?!? How is that racing when this is entirely orchestrated from a car or a race referee on a motorcycle with a girl holding a time gap board?!?!

I say, get rid of that garbage completely, lets get back to racing old style and the leaders team has to be aware ON THE ROAD and during the race wheat is going on around them and cover breaks etc...

That is what entirely happens in amateur racing. You see some guys going off the front, somebody better get to chasing, and the peloton better hit the power to bring it back in. Otherwise, they just ride away, and you are left wondering if you will ever catch them, or not. Nothing wrong with that. I applaud guys that can ride off the front of the group and sustain a break. Because I won't chase them, I'm a sprinter. I'm looking for other guys to cover and bring the group along back up to them. If that doesn't happen, well, no chance for me to compete for the sprint finish.

Now, the sprint teams, like Liquigas-Cannondale just wait for the 3-4 minute mark 30km out, and start to drill it to bring them in with the other sprint teams and GC leaders. The casually catch them to the KM almost it seems of where they want, to then setup a sprint finish.

It is your own fault if you don't give chase, or make a break and keep off the front. Not some race radios or race officials to dictate these things.

Standing ovation. That covers (almost) everything. Hope JV reads this and starts thinking. The fans will turn away one day as happened already in germany (for other reasons). Does he think that clinic issues aren´t enough problems for cycling? Don´t take us for fools.... More Koechlis and less JV´s would help cycling tremendously.

 

[Elagabalus]

Well ... here's one benefit to having no radios ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBduHpsyXcA&feature=related


Now, I'm off to go taunt cycle chic ...

 

[goggalor]

Just Vaughters being Vaughters. How is incorrect information on the blackboard an argument for race radios? Just write the right time gap.

I wouldn't mind if they banned those things just to annoy him.

 

[therhodeo]

I must be missing something. This certainly does not sound like whining or pontificating?

I read everything from Vaughters as whining or pontificating. He's never given me a reason not to.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Vaughters has an agenda. Or rather he has multiple agendas.

On the doping issue he's probably the best major figure in the sport (not, it has to be said that there's much competition). But on that issue as on others, his approach is shaped by his position as a team boss. So, he favours "insider" reform strategies rather than the "burn it all down" approach preferred by some. When it comes to other issues, his agenda is also shaped by his own interests and those of his team.

There's nothing wrong with having an agenda and it's hardly unusual to have your opinions shaped by your own interests, but it is worth remembering when you evaluate some of his opinions. He is chiefly interested in strengthening teams both in absolute terms and relative to other players - the UCI most obviously but also race organisers and, where clashes of interest arise, sponsors and riders. He's always going to predisposed to favour ideas and rules which help teams achieve greater stability, higher incomes and more control.

Race radios are of interest because of (a) genuine safety concerns, (b) the greater predictability and influence they afford team management and (c) because they are a suitable proxy issue in the grind against the UCI. It's a subject I disagree with him on, as I think that safety issues could be addressed with a limited radio system for that purpose only, but I understand why he feels differently and I don't think he's the devil for doing so.

On the subject of this particular stage, teams have a right to be annoyed if riders were being given wildly wrong information as they raced. And to be fair to Vaughters, he didn't go overboard and claim Garmin had been robbed or something - he specifically said that they wouldn't have won the stage and that Georges deserved his win. There's nothing outrageous about his comment.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I must be missing something. This certainly does not sound like whining or pontificating?

Agreed. Sounds like an important criticism that is valuable to a developing practice; if you're not going to use radios and promise time gap information, follow through with the time gaps.

Would other sports teams complain if the shot clock/ game clock was not displayed? Yes. Even the most romanticized setting, using information to make decisions is part of "real racing". Should riders know the percentage of the upcoming gradient? How many Kms are left?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

his agenda is also shaped by his own interests and those of his team.

His interests. True. But who pays the bills? The fans... and his approach is not in our interest.

He is chiefly interested in strengthening teams both in absolute terms and relative to other players - the UCI most obviously but also race organisers and, where clashes of interest arise, sponsors and riders. He's always going to predisposed to favour ideas and rules which help teams achieve greater stability, higher incomes and more control.

Higher incomes come from the fans. JV is absolute wrong if he thinks "franchise cycling" works with europeans. It does not. Not in hockey (germany tried to form the league like the NHL, epic fail, fans didn´t like it), not in soccer (golden goal, like sudden death or overtime in NFL/NHL, epic fail, fans didn´t like it). If he thinks he can generate enough money from americans only, he should go ahead. Anyway, it´s obvious europeans won´t like it.

Race radios are of interest because of (a) genuine safety concerns...

Excuse by him. He tries to trap fans. Actually he only wants them in his interest. Speak "roboter cycling" like some poster geniously called it.

I think that safety issues could be addressed with a limited radio system for that purpose only, but I understand why he feels differently and I don't think he's the devil for doing so.

Absolut correct. But me, i think he is the devil...

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

His interests. True. But who pays the bills? The fans... and his approach is not in our interest.

The various players in cycling - riders, race organisers, sponsors, broadcasters, teams, the UCI and the fans - have different interests, sometimes aligned, sometimes antagonistic. That really shouldn't be particularly shocking or aggravating.

Higher incomes come from the fans.

That's ultimately true, but it's mediated by a whole number of other factors. In most sports, for instance, fans provide the basic regular income of teams in a direct way, through ticket sales. That's not true in cycling. And in most sports, fans provide the other key income step at just one remove - broadcasters, who are all about selling advertising, pay teams. Again, that's not true in cycling.

So yes, it is ultimately in the teams interests for there to be more fans, as sponsors want fans and they are cycling teams chief source of income, but the relationship is more complex than in most sports. From the point of view of an ambitious team boss, fighting the other players for more influence and money is quite reasonably a major priority.

JV is absolute wrong if he thinks "franchise cycling" works with europeans

Possibly not, but remember that from the point of view of team a boss the current model definitely doesn't work. Teams are marginal to the power structure of the sport, denied a reliable income and hence are very ephemeral. Even the biggest teams in the sport collapse with boring inevitability because even one season without a good sponsorship deal is fatal.

Vaughters wants stronger teams, with more diverse and reliable income streams and much greater stability. I don't blame him for wanting that, he'd be an idiot not to.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

through ticket sales.

And that is his number one dream. No more thousands cheering on Alpe or Mt. Ventoux, but exclusive few rich fans like in luxury boxes in NFL-Stadiums who give a $hit about what´s going on at the field. I could vomit when thinking about this...

So yes, it is ultimately in the teams interests for there to be more fans, as sponsors want fans and they are cycling teams chief source of income, but the relationship is more complex than in most sports. From the point of view of an ambitious team boss, fighting the other players for more influence and money is quite reasonably a major priority.

Simple, get the corruption/clinic issues under control. But don´t do it the "franchise way". Speak; throw everything under the carpet, let the player/rider organisations dictate what´s controlled and what not, let no outside influence come into cycling (like WADA). Simply get back to the darkest omerta days. That´s the way us pro sports are run. So it will be the Vaughters way in cycling.

Possibly not, but remember that from the point of view of team a boss the current model definitely doesn't work. Teams are marginal to the power structure of the sport, denied a reliable income and hence are very ephemeral. Even the biggest teams in the sport collapse with boring inevitability because even one season without a good sponsorship deal is fatal.

Vaughters wants stronger teams, with more diverse and reliable income streams and much greater stability. I don't blame him for wanting that, he'd be an idiot not to.

I am on the JV side here. Just don´t do it the US-Way... and concentrate on those issues instead of discussing race radios. Just bring back true racing. The fans will like it.

 

[robert_c]

Sounds like Vaughters wants to be the next Bernie Ecclestone.

 

[CobbleStoner]

this whole argument is ridiculous. radios are technology, communication is what being a DS is all about. in the old days they had sunroofs and bullhorns, nobody tried to ban sunroofs and bullhorns. every other sport the coach can talk to his players during the game. if they are going to ban radios, then they should ban carbon frames, electronic shifting, any technology that helps the athletes. stupid argument, but Vaughters is kinda annoying too.
Pat McQuaid must go!

 

[karlboss]

Radios, powermeters, heart rate monitors are not the devil. If none existed and the chalkboard gave accurate info, we'd still get the same boring racing you complain about, info is just relayed slower.

Ban the knowledge of time gaps via any means and then you'll see survival of the strongest.

 

[wirral]

Sylvain Georges, the new Pedro Delgado... so, will we still be discussing "The Stolen Big Bear Stage" 27 years on?

The Stolen Bear, no, The Big Stolen Bear, no, The Stolen Lake, sounds better, ahh, I think you had it first time, "The Stolen Big Bear Stage", yes.

Now, we have to work in some other factors. We've got the dodgy chalkboards, that's good. What we need is to meld together a combination of clear cheating, excessive nationalism and its sibling, xenophobia. Unfortunately, in this case the stage was won by a French rider on a French team so we are a bit weak in this department.

Ok, Sagan hate, that has to be the angle. Can we come up with an abusive nickname for him, say, El Eslovaquiente.

I think this will do for starters. We need to push this story in Slovakia to get a good sense of indignation going over there. If you have any good ideas, let me know.