'Victims' of EPO" vs. "EPO wonders"

["Jeff"]

Just like many of us, I think EPO became a problem at the end of '89 and the beginning of 1990. Around 1993 at least 50% were using it, mostly Italians IMO. It's really stunning how many good riders in the '80s suddenly declined very badly around 1992/1993. Of course age is a factor too but 30-31-32 was never really a problem in the '70s/'80s. I can live with the ''normal things'' like anabolic steroids, corticosone, amphetamines etc but EPO destroyed cycling. I can't take any result seriously anymore for the period 1993-2000 and than I'm very optimistic...

I was an amateur between 1995 and 1999. I was a decent climber but that was about it. Flat stages and time-trials were an agony for me (it was great here in Holland...not). From my era, only a few Dutch riders did anything as professional (no surprise - in hindsight). I competed against the likes of Addy Engels, Gerben Lowik and Bram Schmitz. Who ? I hear you think. A few times I went to the Alps and did the l'Alpe d'Huez in about 48-49 minutes (age 18/19). At the time I knew a guy like Marco Pantani did it in about 33 minutes and I was thinking how could I climb any more faster. Well of course I cold imrpove but 15 minutes ??? I quit at the end of 1998 and that was one of the reasons. Watching Pantani fly was too much for me. Great climber, the best I have ever seen but a cheater. I know how steep the l'Alpe d'Huez is (in the beginning) and many other Alps too and just could not believe it.

Now my two questions and I understand this is pure speculation;

1) I'm really curious which cyclists do you think were clean of EPO and had a shortened career because of EPO and EPO only ?

2) Which riders suddenly became very good riders just because of EPO. In this case I'm not talking about the Rominger's, Virenque's, Berzin's etc of this world (that's obvious) but the ones that would be nobody's/water carriers/average at best without it.

I will list a couple of names for now..

1) IMO clean and victim.
* Martial Gayant, Charly Mottet, Alvaro Pino, Luis Herrera, Urs Zimmermann, Andy Hampsten, Greg LeMond, Frans Maasen, Niki Ruttimann, Eduardo Chozas, Jean-Francois Bernard, Steve Bauer, Anselmo Fuerte, Martin Earley, Eric Boyer, Laudelino Cubino, Eddy Bouwmans, Edwig van Hooydonck, Jelle Nijdam, Sean Yates, Luc Roosen, Oliverio Rincon, Eric Breukink...

2) Any kind of career or some high rankings just because of EPO (regular names).

* Fabrizio Guidi & that complete Scrigno team in 1996 (complete joke), Roberto Pistore, Gianni Faresin, Markus Zberg, Andrea Noe, Andrei Zintchenko, Peter Luttenberger, Giuseppe di Grande, Felice Puttini, Giuliano Figueras, Bruno Cenghialta, Massimo Ghirotto, Alberto Elli, Stefano della Santa, Gianluca Bortolami, Alberto Volpi, Massimo Podenzana, Enrico Zaina, Vladislav Bobrik, Sergei Utchakov, Roland Meier, Heinz Imboden, Francesco Frattini, Stefano Zanini, Wilfried Peeters...

Who do you think ?

 

[pmcg76]

Talk about mission impossible!!

 

["Jeff"]

I know, its just for fun.

I think we all have that one special cyclist that you loved, who had to end his career because of all those cheaters. I was really ****ed off when we started to hear those stories about EPO and that I had wasted my time with those freaks.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Simple, all were victims.

I didn't like your 'epo free' list though. Really, Breukink? Rincon? Yates? Italian and Spanish teams were the frontmen of those idiots.

A rider ho suddenly became good was good old Claudio Cappucino, with his arrival - and Bugno winning the Giro - it all began in my opinion.

 

[hiero2]

I pretty much agree with your timeline. 50% of the peloton by 1995 might be high, but no way for me to ever know.

Unfortunately, after you count out Lemond and Hampsten, the list of lower placed riders in those years that I paid attention to (and liked, as I did not like Boyer) was nonexistent.

So, I have to 2nd the "mission impossible". Sorry

Oh - and btw I was racing as an amateur from about 87-90. About '90 real life took over and I had no time.

 

["Jeff"]

Simple, all were victims.

I didn't like your 'epo free' list though. Really, Breukink? Rincon? Yates? Italian and Spanish teams were the frontmen of those idiots.

A rider ho suddenly became good was good old Claudio Cappucino, with his arrival - and Bugno winning the Giro - it all began in my opinion.

Well I know Erik Breukink a bit, he's from my area too. I can't go into full detail but Erik is a good guy. He was also one of the most anxious guys of the peloton. If you seriously think Erik Breukink was aware of the fact that he was getting EPO (with PDM) or was using it thereafter than I just dont know what to say. His results after 1991 also speak volumes. He went from one of the best to average

Just the fact that Italian and Spansish teams were the front runners, does not mean every rider on the team was using it. There were even 2/3 Festina riders who never used EPO.

But of course you can disagree, the names I provided is just my opinion.

 

[Caruut]

Nice guys still dope.

And Fignon of course is another victim.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Well I know Erik Breukink a bit, he's from my area too. I can't go into full detail but Erik is a good guy. He was also one of the most anxious guys of the peloton. If you seriously think Erik Breukink was aware of the fact that he was getting EPO (with PDM) or was using it thereafter than I just dont know what to say. His results after 1991 also speak volumes. He went from one of the best to average

Just the fact that Italian and Spansish teams were the front runners, does not mean every rider on the team was using it. There were even 2/3 Festina riders who never used EPO.

But of course you can disagree, the names I provided is just my opinion.

I liked Breukink too, he was one of my favourite riders when he was riding at Peter Posts team. Those Giro's were absolute great. Gavia et all. The boy had bad days, compare that to cycling of the last 20 years...

Something changed when he went to team cheat, that's how we called PDM those days. Look at the way the results of Rooks and Theunissen deminished when they transferred to Post and look at the results of Breukink when he transferred to PDM. And I am not even mentioning that EPO overdose or do they still call it the bad intralepid in 1991?

I tend to think he wasnt willing to take those healthrisks after that bad
'intrapelid'. But surely, riding at ONCE with maniac Manolo and our good friend Eufamenio as team doctor, that could ring a bell, even for a guy who kinda knows Erik.

 

["Jeff"]

I liked Breukink too, he was one of my favourite riders when he was riding at Peter Posts team. Those Giro's were absolute great. Gavia et all. The boy had bad days, compare that to cycling of the last 20 years...

Something changed when he went to team cheat, that's how we called PDM those days. Look at the way the results of Rooks and Theunissen deminished when they transferred to Post and look at the results of Breukink when he transferred to PDM. And I am not even mentioning that EPO overdose or do they still call it the bad intralepid in 1991?

I tend to think he wasnt willing to take those healthrisks after that bad
'intrapelid'. But surely, riding at ONCE with maniac Manolo and our good friend Eufamenio as team doctor, that could ring a bell, even for a guy who kinda knows Erik.

Those ONCE days were really Breukink's highlight of his career, did they ?

About Theunisse and Rooks. I read their names in that great EPO topic from a couple of months ago and I was actually a bit surprised by it.

Rooks; admitted he used EPO in his career but I think it destroyed more for him than it did anything good. He never ever achieved anything anymore in the Grand Tours after 1992 and EPO is the reason IMO. He finished 9th in the Tour of France of 1986 (with PDM) and some act like he was coming out of nowhere ? Really ? The combination Rooks-Post has never been a good one, he has said that multiple times himself too. In 1984 and 1985 (with Panasonic he didnt really do well either). In 1991 he finished 26th in the Tour with Buckler. He lost more than 27 minutes in one mountain stage because he was ill (20 minutes on Indurain). He would have finished just outside the top 10 of he didnt have that one bad day. Steven Rooks was kinda whiney but a heck of a talent.

Theunisse; well Theunisse have been caught on doping several times. Later he could prove that his testosteron level increased because he had some kind of weird illness. I believe that for a bit but not 100%, but same as with Rooks, he vanished in the Grand Tours after 1992. With Panasonic (1990) he still finished 15th in the Giro and that was just a preparation for the Tour de France and he won Fleche-Wallone (got ripped of the victory because of doping). He had some good results that year, who says he sucked in 1990 ? The results say otherwise for him. Theunisse alsof did well in the Tour de France of 1987 but lost a lot of time in some flat stages so he finishd 48th or so. People who watched the Tour of 1987 know he did very well in the mountain stages.

My conclusion, I dont understand how some can say that they came out of nowhere. They were both pretty good climbers and they showed it already when EPO had NOT even arrived. When half the peloton was using it, they barely achieved anything anymore. Both have used doping, no doubt though.

Breukink; 3rd/2nd and 4th with Panasonic in the Giro (1987-1988-1989). In 1990 he only focussed on the Tour, no Giro(first time in his career). He finished 3rd in the Tour, more than logical result after what he had achieved already. Yeah he was wearing a PDM jersey, he could have worn a Panasonic jersey too IMO.

No I dont understand the connection between PDM and Panasonic in relation to Rooks/Theunisse & Breukink when all three riders changed teams. I think its a combination of coincidence and logical thinking and that it can be explained.

 

[issoisso]

Well I know Erik Breukink a bit, he's from my area too. I can't go into full detail but Erik is a good guy. He was also one of the most anxious guys of the peloton. If you seriously think Erik Breukink was aware of the fact that he was getting EPO (with PDM) or was using it thereafter than I just dont know what to say. His results after 1991 also speak volumes. He went from one of the best to average

Just the fact that Italian and Spansish teams were the front runners, does not mean every rider on the team was using it. There were even 2/3 Festina riders who never used EPO.

But of course you can disagree, the names I provided is just my opinion.

Meet Alejandro Valverde. Nicest guy in the world.
Irredeemable doper.

Nice guys also dope. I can name hundreds.

 

[D-Queued]

Victims?

How about all those that died from using it?

As for donkeys, what about Mr. 64%?

Dave.

 

["Jeff"]

Meet Alejandro Valverde. Nicest guy in the world.
Irredeemable doper.

Nice guys also dope. I can name hundreds.

I think I have been a little confusing. The fact Breukink was a nice guy was not an argument of mine that he didnt use. Just a general comment because I said I know him a bit.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

No I dont understand the connection between PDM and Panasonic in relation to Rooks/Theunisse & Breukink when all three riders changed teams. I think its a combination of coincidence and logical thinking and that it can be explained.

Breukink who went from a good TT to the best at team cheat while two good climbers like Rooks and Theunisse suddenly couldn't climb anymore leaving team cheat for Post?

If that is just a coincidence I will eat my shoes.

 

["Jeff"]

Breukink who went from a good TT to the best at team cheat while two good climbers like Rooks and Theunisse suddenly couldn't climb anymore leaving team cheat for Post?

If that is just a coincidence I will eat my shoes.

This opinion is like saying grass isn't green. Its obvious that you are not a fan of PDM and neither do I know what happened over there. If anything happened.

Yet there are certain facts/results, which I already explained in my previous posts, but you just ignore them because of your bias. That's a pity. Both Rooks and Theunisse could still climb and also showed it when there wasnt even any talk of EPO.

And Breukink..he won several time trials in the Tour from Romandie, Criterium International, Basque Tour and the prologue of the Tour in 1989 (hello, hello ??) as a member of Panasonic. He was the best TT specialist for only one year (1990) and his results in time trials wasnt any different in 1991 & 1992 than from 1987-1989.

No coicidence, but facts in this case.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

This opinion is like saying grass isn't green. Its obvious that you are not a fan of PDM and neither do I know what happened over there. If anything happened.

I liked Sean Kelly I must say but when friggin Raul Alcala is winning a TT in any GT and stands on the podium with a somewhat disgraced face anyone should know 'something' is smelly.

Yet there are certain facts/results, which I already explained in my previous posts, but you just ignore them because of your bias. That's a pity. Both Rooks and Theunisse could still climb and also showed it when there wasnt even any talk of EPO.

My bias? Just look at Rooks and Theunissen after PDM and at Post:
http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=4645

and

http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=7165

That, my friend, are facts. A clear downfall whereas Breukink had a clear rise in performance in 1990 after his not too good - even bad, Post let him go - 1989.

I do not want to pick on your friend/hero but his 1990 season was extremely good. If he hadn't got an EPO overdose in 1991 he probably would have won.

 

["Jeff"]

I liked Sean Kelly I must say but when friggin Raul Alcala is winning a TT in any GT and stands on the podium with a somewhat disgraced face anyone should know 'something' is smelly.

I cant say anything about that of course. Could have been cheating, could have been a great natural performance. This is a matter of opinion.

My bias? Just look at Rooks and Theunissen after PDM and at Post:
http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=4645

and

http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=7165

That, my friend, are facts. A clear downfall whereas Breukink had a clear rise in performance in 1990 after his not too good - even bad, Post let him go - 1989.

No those are not the facts. Breukink's contract expired too, Post didnt let him go.

+ How many times do I need repeat that;

* Rooks NEVER did well with Post. Could it be a bad year ? I think so.
* Rooks was one of the best in the Tour of '91 if it wasnt for one bad mountain stage and that he sucked in time trials. He was riding for Buckler back then.
* Breukink for the first time (1990) only did one Grand Tour (NO Giro), was more expierenced and of course more well rested now. This must not be very hard to understand.
* Theunisse still finished 15th in the Giro of 1990 when he was probably only 80%.
* Theunisse was suspended for most of the year because of a doping case (of course testosteron again). You can show the results of de wielersite but if you dont know that he was suspended than its getting difficult. It is kinda hard to perform when you are watching televison...

Why do you keep ignoring that ? You also base everything on ONE freaking year. Where was Breukink in 1991 and 1992 when he was still with PDM as well ? You are allowed to think that PDM were cheaters but some arguments are weak IMO. A few things are explainable but because of your bias, you dont want to see it.

I do not want to pick on your friend/hero but his 1990 season was extremely good. If he hadn't got an EPO overdose in 1991 he probably would have won.

Breukink is not my hero nor friend.

Jean-Francois Bernard, Vladislav Bobrik, Francesco Casagrande were.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Yates might not be such a victim depending on how you look at things.

 

[Centurion]

At the time I knew a guy like Marco Pantani did it in about 33 minutes

That figure is quite wide of the mark. Don't You think ?

 

[ElChingon]

I don't know, when I read "Victims of EPO", I tend to start thinking about riders who never woke up after having their blood turned into sluge or the families/relationships broken up by the use of EPO (physiological issues of doping). Can't see using and not winning every race as being a Victim

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't know, when I read "Victims of EPO", I tend to start thinking about riders who never woke up after having their blood turned into sluge or the families/relationships broken up by the use of EPO (physiological issues of doping). Can't see using and not winning every race as being a Victim

While your point is very valid, the "victims" of EPO as defined by this thread would be the likes of Lucho Herrera, who were top level cyclists left behind by others using EPO, rather than those who used it but were outdone by other users.

 

[Avoriaz]

Irrespective of what you think of Rooks, Theunisse and Breukink, it is a fair point that EPO did them no favours. For sure GJTheunisse was as straight as a famous building in Pisa, but the EPO crowd left them behind.

Giorgio Furlan, Gabriele Colombo, Giancarlo Perini, Massimo Ghirotto, Bruno Cenghialta....

EPO landed in Italy.

I don't weep for Rooks and Theunisse though, and certainly wouldn't call them victims. That is saved for the likes of Bassons

 

[Centurion]

I will list a couple of names for now..

1) IMO clean and victim.
* Martial Gayant, Charly Mottet, Alvaro Pino, Luis Herrera, Urs Zimmermann, Andy Hampsten, Greg LeMond, Frans Maasen, Niki Ruttimann, Eduardo Chozas, Jean-Francois Bernard, Steve Bauer, Anselmo Fuerte, Martin Earley, Eric Boyer, Laudelino Cubino, Eddy Bouwmans, Edwig van Hooydonck, Jelle Nijdam, Sean Yates, Luc Roosen, Oliverio Rincon, Eric Breukink...

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/doping-forum/why-jv-needs-come-clean-284497-4.html

I don't see him claiming to be a victim but I do think that many who chose to ride clean in the 90's and early 00's were victims. The sport had little room for them. Guys like Christophe Bassons, Martial Gayant, Charly Mottet, Alvaro Pino, Luis Herrera, Urs Zimmermann, Andy Hampsten, Greg LeMond, Frans Maasen, Niki Ruttimann, Eduardo Chozas, Jean-Francois Bernard, Steve Bauer, Anselmo Fuerte, Martin Earley, Eric Boyer, Laudelino Cubino, Eddy Bouwmans. Their careers were ruined when EPO came onto the scene

Seems to similar to be a coincidence ?

 

[Big Doopie]

gilles delion -- french tour winner that never was.

chiappucci -- would have been completely anonymous/unknown.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I cant say anything about that of course. Could have been cheating, could have been a great natural performance. This is a matter of opinion.

Opinion? No sir, if a decent TT'er like Alcala suddenly gains minutes on world class TT'ers there is something smelly.

No those are not the facts. Breukink's contract expired too, Post didnt let him go.

Duh, and why didn't Post extend his contract with his protege? Because he was so happy with Breukink in 1989 of course.

+ How many times do I need repeat that;

* Rooks NEVER did well with Post. Could it be a bad year ? I think so.
* Rooks was one of the best in the Tour of '91 if it wasnt for one bad mountain stage and that he sucked in time trials. He was riding for Buckler back then.
* Breukink for the first time (1990) only did one Grand Tour (NO Giro), was more expierenced and of course more well rested now. This must not be very hard to understand.
* Theunisse still finished 15th in the Giro of 1990 when he was probably only 80%.
* Theunisse was suspended for most of the year because of a doping case (of course testosteron again). You can show the results of de wielersite but if you dont know that he was suspended than its getting difficult. It is kinda hard to perform when you are watching televison...

Why do you keep ignoring that ? You also base everything on ONE freaking year. Where was Breukink in 1991 and 1992 when he was still with PDM as well ? You are allowed to think that PDM were cheaters but some arguments are weak IMO. A few things are explainable but because of your bias, you dont want to see it.

Accusing me of being biassed when it looks the biassed person is you.

And you don't have to try to give me a cycling 'lesson' cause my memory is still good, very good. I only linked to the site so you can see the progress and downfall of riders with statistics. Theunisse suspended? Duh, that guy should never have been in the pro peloton at all, wonder what Dick Pound would have to say about Theunisse.

Jean-Francois Bernard, Vladislav Bobrik, Francesco Casagrande were.

Are u kiddin me?

 

[my username is flish]

Martin Earley was on the 91 PDM tour team that pulled out with 9 very sick riders, the story that came out in the late 90s being that it was due to incorrectly stored EPO. So I would lump him in with Kelly and the rest of that happy bunch.

IMO funny results from 90-94 (either good results from mediocre riders or poor results from quality riders) have less to do with what they were taking (i.e. I think they were nearly all taking EPO by 94) and a lot more to do with HOW they were taking it. The guys who had the doctors managing their usage got better results from the same quantity of EPO than the guys who pumped it in but didn't understand how to really grow the cells and combine that with their training plan. Eventually the science spread out and established methods of how to use EPO became standard.