Vroomen > Vaughters

[BroDeal]

Posted by Gerard Vroomen in a LeMond thread on Slowtwitch.

"You're wondering why Lemond got involved in the Landis and Armstrong cases? Maybe because he cares about cycling? Maybe he knew more than people on this forum and had something to say about it? And maybe because it was offensive to him how those two behaved? He's certainly not the only pro cyclist to be offended by the mess created by some of their colleagues."

-edited -- whole comment can be found here-->

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/S...Forum_F1/Breaking_News:_Greg_Lemond_P913791-5

He seems to have a bit more fire in the belly than Vaughters does.

 

[Polish]

Did Greg send a letter to the Doping Authorities raising the flag while he was riding like Lance did while he was riding?

Lance>Greg.

Did Vroomen raise the flag while dopers rode his bikes?

Lance>Vroomen

 

[thehog]

Posted by Gerard Vroomen in a LeMond thread on Slowtwitch.

"You're wondering why Lemond got involved in the Landis and Armstrong cases? Maybe because he cares about cycling? Maybe he knew more than people on this forum and had something to say about it? And maybe because it was offensive to him how those two behaved? He's certainly not the only pro cyclist to be offended by the mess created by some of their colleagues.

---removed edited quote--

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/S...Forum_F1/Breaking_News:_Greg_Lemond_P913791-5

He seems to have a bit more fire in the belly than Vaughters does.

Bravo Vroom. Looks like that thread has gone quite after his post. Back in the day the forum-inmates would actually defend that Ferrari is a great trainer and nothing else. I'm surprised in Slow-twitch people still beat up on Greg. Didn't that broken record get thrown out?

 

[Polish]

Bravo Vroom. Looks like that thread has gone quite after his post. Back in the day the forum-inmates would actually defend that Ferrari is a great trainer and nothing else. I'm surprised in Slow-twitch people still beat up on Greg. Didn't that broken record get thrown out?

But the FACT remains that Lance broke Omerta while he was riding.
And he was not just a rider, he was THE Patron.
How many other Patrons broke omerta while riding?
Zero? None? Not a single one? Nada?
Lance fired a shot across the bow.
E-mailed WADA and the ASO.
Pubicly donated funds for a state of the art Sysmex machine.

Greg, JV, Floyd did not break omerta while riding.
Vroomen broke omerta when it made business sense.

I realize Lance is the great satan to many here in the clinic. But things were getting cleaner in 2004 and 2005 as Lance finished his career. Lance was breaking omerta. Telling people to Believe.

Then came 2006 and Puerto and things backslid big time....

 

[BroDeal]

I don't know why I even bother to post in this forum anymore.

 

[Zweistein]

But the FACT remains that Lance broke Omerta while he was riding.
And he was not just a rider, he was THE Patron.
How many other Patrons broke omerta while riding?
Zero? None? Not a single one? Nada?
Lance fired a shot across the bow.
E-mailed WADA and the ASO.
Pubicly donated funds for a state of the art Sysmex machine.

Greg, JV, Floyd did not break omerta while riding.
Vroomen broke omerta when it made business sense.

I realize Lance is the great satan to many here in the clinic. But things were getting cleaner in 2004 and 2005 as Lance finished his career. Lance was breaking omerta. Telling people to Believe.

Then came 2006 and Puerto and things backslid big time....

Can you lay it on any thicker?

 

[Parera]

I don't know why I even bother to post in this forum anymore.

I love that OP in the slowtwitch link. The League of Mouth Breathing Troglodytes must be very proud.

 

[Arnout]

I got betrayed by Vroomen, starting a cycling team and then leaving through the back door, leaving the cyclists of his team utterly bewilderd the last night before the '10 Vuelta.

Just saying.

 

[hrotha]

I don't know why I even bother to post in this forum anymore.

Come on, you gotta give it to Polish, that was brilliant. It had just the right amounts of truth in it to be a masterpiece of trolling.

 

[Polish]

I don't know why I even bother to post in this forum anymore.

Probably should not have bothered to post yet another "lets critisize JV for not critisizing Lance" thread. Aren't there a few of those threads already?
There is a search function. Bump one of those other threads fcol.

 

[Velodude]

Did Greg send a letter to the Doping Authorities raising the flag while he was riding like Lance did while he was riding?

Lance>Greg.

Was that the communication by wonderboy to ASO and UCI that suggested that pro cyclists were on the then undisclosed Fuentes (to become Puerto) doping program that was a rival his own exclusive Ferrari program?

Wonderboy did not appreciate a level doping field.

Did Vroomen raise the flag while dopers rode his bikes?

Lance>Vroomen

Did John Burke from Trek (and also a director of Tailwind Sports) raise the flag about dopers on his company's bikes?

 

[Anonymous]

But the FACT remains that Lance broke Omerta while he was riding.
And he was not just a rider, he was THE Patron.
How many other Patrons broke omerta while riding?
Zero? None? Not a single one? Nada?
Lance fired a shot across the bow.
E-mailed WADA and the ASO.
Pubicly donated funds for a state of the art Sysmex machine.

Greg, JV, Floyd did not break omerta while riding.
Vroomen broke omerta when it made business sense.

I realize Lance is the great satan to many here in the clinic. But things were getting cleaner in 2004 and 2005 as Lance finished his career. Lance was breaking omerta. Telling people to Believe.

Then came 2006 and Puerto and things backslid big time....

Pure troll goodness.
Mmmmm. Tastes like chicken.

Lance needs to list his dope dealers.
He also needs quit his coke and hooker habit.
He thinks he is Charles Bukowski.
Charles Bukowski had character though.

“If you're going to try, go all the way. Otherwise, don't even start. This could mean losing girlfriends, wives, relatives and maybe even your mind. It could mean not eating for three or four days. It could mean freezing on a park bench. It could mean jail. It could mean derision. It could mean mockery--isolation. Isolation is the gift. All the others are a test of your endurance, of how much you really want to do it. And, you'll do it, despite rejection and the worst odds. And it will be better than anything else you can imagine. If you're going to try, go all the way. There is no other feeling like that. You will be alone with the gods, and the nights will flame with fire. You will ride life straight to perfect laughter. It's the only good fight there is.”
― Charles Bukowski, Factotum

Lance rode a cancer charity to fantastic wealth, hookers, and blow.
I will take the drunk in the corner, he had more class.

 

[thehog]

I don't know why I even bother to post in this forum anymore.

After Dr. M meltdown last night I'm at the point of giving up as well...

 

[thehog]

Pure troll goodness.
Mmmmm. Tastes like chicken.

Lance needs to list his dope dealers.
He also needs quit his coke and hooker habit.
He thinks he is Charles Bukowski.
Charles Bukowski had character though.

“If you're going to try, go all the way. Otherwise, don't even start. This could mean losing girlfriends, wives, relatives and maybe even your mind. It could mean not eating for three or four days. It could mean freezing on a park bench. It could mean jail. It could mean derision. It could mean mockery--isolation. Isolation is the gift. All the others are a test of your endurance, of how much you really want to do it. And, you'll do it, despite rejection and the worst odds. And it will be better than anything else you can imagine. If you're going to try, go all the way. There is no other feeling like that. You will be alone with the gods, and the nights will flame with fire. You will ride life straight to perfect laughter. It's the only good fight there is.”
― Charles Bukowski, Factotum

Lance rode a cancer charity to fantastic wealth, hookers, and blow.
I will take the drunk in the corner, he had more class.

Thank-you. I've now selected my NYE weekend reading. Love the passage. I did not know of Bukowski's work prior.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Knock it off, the lot of you. Cleaning up once again.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank-you. I've now selected my NYE weekend reading. Love the passage. I did not know of Bukowski's work prior.

You can never go wrong with Bukowski.

 

[Fatclimber]

Vroomen stated in is post that he felt betrayed by the sport for the last 20 years. Who knows what and when he knew behind closed doors. Maybe he got shoved out. I'm not trying to make excuses for him dropping the sponsorship, but wouldn't it be grand to know the truth?

That thread spanned 5 years. Funny how some jumped all over Greg for telling Floyd to come clean (what, you think he doped!?!) but never mentioned anything after Floyd admitted guilt.

I'm intrigued by Lemond. Not because he's masterful at manipulating the media and coming across as a champion of champions, but because personality-wise he's just a regular Joe who suffers from diarrhea of the mouth. The more you talk the more likely you are to say unpopular things, especially to the media. Heck, that tactic will get you out of jury duty every time. There's no denying he was overflowing with natural talent.

Thanks for the post Bro, thankfully it wasn't all knuckleheads posting in it.

 

[BroDeal]

I got betrayed by Vroomen, starting a cycling team and then leaving through the back door, leaving the cyclists of his team utterly bewilderd the last night before the '10 Vuelta.

Just saying.

Looking at what is going on at Cervelo now with their blowout discount sale and a financing agreement that will lead to selling the company, I think it is a pretty good bet that the test team died because the company could not financially support the outlay required by the team. In another thread on Slowtwitch someone who claims to have inside knowledge says that the pro team was Vroomen's baby, put the company into debt, and forced Vroomen out of the operations of the company. I have no idea whether that is true or whether the end of the team could have been handled better, but there are all sorts of scenarios that could have left the company scrambling to end its test team. They might have been relying on having a co-sponsor shoulder half of the team's cost but could not find one or had a deal fall through.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Vroomen stated in is post that he felt betrayed by the sport for the last 20 years. Who knows what and when he knew behind closed doors. Maybe he got shoved out. I'm not trying to make excuses for him dropping the sponsorship, but wouldn't it be grand to know the truth?

Well, I and others can tell you the economics of the bike business do not support fielding a UCI ProTour team.

And then there's dealing with Pat AND the UCI which has to be both dirty (Pat) and frustrating. (UCI) Ask a promoter or two that have paid to play and put on UCI sanctioned events. There's no end to the mysterious ways that rules are/are not enforced.

At this point he's got to be experiencing lots of frustrations and anger seeing his company sold and simply put the Cervelo sticker on another TopKey bike. That can reasonably explain him expressing some frustrations.

 

[ggusta]

Looking at what is going on at Cervelo now with their blowout discount sale and a financing agreement that will lead to selling the company, I think it is a pretty good bet that the test team died because the company could not financially support the outlay required by the team. In another thread on Slowtwitch someone who claims to have inside knowledge says that the pro team was Vroomen's baby, put the company into debt, and forced Vroomen out of the operations of the company. I have no idea whether that is true or whether the end of the team could have been handled better, but there are all sorts of scenarios that could have left the company scrambling to end its test team. They might have been relying on having a co-sponsor shoulder half of the team's cost but could not find one or had a deal fall through.

Off topic a little but the people i know in the cycling industry get a little frustrate with the pathetically small size of the industry. There is just no room for a lot of people to make sufficient money to keep their businesses afloat.

It really should grow to be something larger than what it has and I think people like Vroomen are frustrated by that and it comes out in these semi-unrelated ways.

A weak industry in a prolonged worldwide weak economy...it ends up with some babies getting thrown out with the bathwater.

 

[Parera]

Off topic a little but the people i know in the cycling industry get a little frustrate with the pathetically small size of the industry. There is just no room for a lot of people to make sufficient money to keep their businesses afloat.

It really should grow to be something larger than what it has and I think people like Vroomen are frustrated by that and it comes out in these semi-unrelated ways.

A weak industry in a prolonged worldwide weak economy...it ends up with some babies getting thrown out with the bathwater.

Maybe companies shouldn't be charging $3000-5000 for a racing bicycle frame? Kind of tough to grow a sport when it's marketed for the financially well-off.

 

[ggusta]

Maybe companies shouldn't be charging $3000-5000 for a racing bicycle frame? Kind of tough to grow a sport when it's marketed for the financially well-off.

What happens is the economics enters a 'death spiral'. Gosh, that sounds worse than this actually is.

To make money, you have to figure how many you will sell and spread your costs, r&D, marketing, overhead, profit out amongst that number. As the number of sales shrinks, the required selling price of each unit goes up. It becomes a nightmare scenario for the seller. You have to ask each purchaser to bear more of the burden. Especially difficult when you want to be a chi-chi high end boutique brand. You want to charge more for exclusivity but still have enough sales to keep the doors open. It's a highwire act.

The solution of course is to sell more and spread that out over a greater number of units. The reverse is occurring, especially in this economy when weaklings are just getting shredded. If I had an idea to grow the sport or hobby or avocation or whatever you want to call it that hasn't been tried 5 times and failed, I'd be shouting it from the mountaintops. I posted elsewhere about the problems of getting kids off the couch.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=751452#post751452

If you see the price and quality of what a major retailer sells its crappy bikes for and what a decent road bike sells for my issue is that there is enormous gulf between the quality that they sell and what I would accept.

This is where I get PO'd about cycling's inability to grow. If it could get a little bigger and keep growing a little, there would be better choices in that huge gulf. And there'd be more room for these LBS's to earn a profit themselves. We are losing them en masse and they aren't coming back.

 

[Benotti69]

What happens is the economics enters a 'death spiral'. Gosh, that sounds worse than this actually is.

To make money, you have to figure how many you will sell and spread your costs, r&D, marketing, overhead, profit out amongst that number. As the number of sales shrinks, the required selling price of each unit goes up. It becomes a nightmare scenario for the seller. You have to ask each purchaser to bear more of the burden. Especially difficult when you want to be a chi-chi high end boutique brand. You want to charge more for exclusivity but still have enough sales to keep the doors open. It's a highwire act.

The solution of course is to sell more and spread that out over a greater number of units. The reverse is occurring, especially in this economy when weaklings are just getting shredded. If I had an idea to grow the sport or hobby or avocation or whatever you want to call it that hasn't been tried 5 times and failed, I'd be shouting it from the mountaintops. I posted elsewhere about the problems of getting kids off the couch.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=751452#post751452

If you see the price and quality of what a major retailer sells its crappy bikes for and what a decent road bike sells for my issue is that there is enormous gulf between the quality that they sell and what I would accept.

This is where I get PO'd about cycling's inability to grow. If it could get a little bigger and keep growing a little, there would be better choices in that huge gulf. And there'd be more room for these LBS's to earn a profit themselves. We are losing them en masse and they aren't coming back.

How about cleaning it up for a start. The UCI has kept it a dirty sport and has gone down the technology route making it seem an expensive sport to enter and succeed in.

Footballs success has been got a ball have a game anywhere. UCI has pushed the tech thing to a point that all the talk is on how much a bike weighs and how many .0000001% it shaves of a time in aerodynamics etc etc blah blah.

How about riders get on a bike and race according to their abilities being the major talk in the sport and not doping (see Cavendish latest story) or latest carbon crap.

 

[veganrob]

Yes it is a weak economy but custom hand built bikes seem to be doing well. They are still out of reach of most of us but there is a market. Maybe the person with money wants something more personal and is willing to pay for it. Why pay $3000 to $5000 for a POS Cervelo that ride like crap and has highest failure rate in the industry. People will always pay for quality. They will tire of getting fleeced. Maybe Gerard could start there.

 

[hrotha]

How about cleaning it up for a start. The UCI has kept it a dirty sport and has gone down the technology route making it seem an expensive sport to enter and succeed in.

Footballs success has been got a ball have a game anywhere. UCI has pushed the tech thing to a point that all the talk is on how much a bike weighs and how many .0000001% it shaves of a time in aerodynamics etc etc blah blah.

How about riders get on a bike and race according to their abilities being the major talk in the sport and not doping (see Cavendish latest story) or latest carbon crap.

How is the UCI to blame for this when they've actually capped technological development of bikes? Remeber the weight and aerodynamic restrictions?

No, it's the user who is to blame. Plenty of customers want that fancy bike that weighs half a nanogram less.