Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2025, Stage 4: Susa – Voiron (206.7k)

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Its hard to take the critic too seriously when one of the main point are that he's too good in smaller races tbf. Mads Pedersen is good all year, and while he's at these smaller races, he uses them to dig deep riding aggressively from far out. But its better, apparantly, to just wait for the final sprint instead, and then maybe not, because Trek gets critisized for neutering racing on stages like this, so what can he and Trek realistically do to make illmaesto like them?

Maybe its not coincidence that he doesn't like Wout van Aert either, a very similar rider. Key is you don't want to be a fast, versatile, very good, but not quite MVDP type classics rider, because then you are making races worse!
 
Strange way to rephrase a perfectly clear position that he Pedersen is a net negative on small and big races alike.

Because you don't like him.

If he gets to the line with Pogi, Van der Poel or any other for that matter, he wins. In GW last year, he beat Van der Poel fair and square.

People were probably saying he shouldn't have pulled in Roubaix this year, that wouldn't surprise me, which just proves that they underestimate him massively.

I get how it seems a bit too macho but do you want him to just sit idly by and not take a single pull? That's just not how the top echelon of the sport works.

And I simply refuse to acknowledge the small race thing. It's an abomination how little most top riders ride, and the fact that Pedersen does not buy in on that ridiculous trend should be to his immense credit. A rider who actually seems to like to race.
 
But its better, apparantly, to just wait for the final sprint instead, and then maybe not, because Trek gets critisized for neutering racing on stages like this, so what can he and Trek realistically do to make illmaesto like them?
Well, speaking Trek they displayed madness at yesterday's Ceres stage, The Kraghen and Ciccione roasting Mads' sprint :p Leading to lovely suspense to the line and the opportunity for the weaver Gaudu, taking advantage of his skills around the last sharp bend. Myself shouting in front of the telly that it was Gaudu's chance just a moment before his move, though much to his own surprise, apparently. Credits to Trek for unwise tactics, delivering good TV :)
 
Strange way to rephrase a perfectly clear position that he Pedersen is a net negative on small and big races alike.
It's easier to attack the poster if you remove the nuance of what they write.
Its hard to take the critic too seriously when one of the main point are that he's too good in smaller races tbf. Mads Pedersen is good all year, and while he's at these smaller races, he uses them to dig deep riding aggressively from far out. But its better, apparantly, to just wait for the final sprint instead, and then maybe not, because Trek gets critisized for neutering racing on stages like this, so what can he and Trek realistically do to make illmaesto like them?

Maybe its not coincidence that he doesn't like Wout van Aert either, a very similar rider. Key is you don't want to be a fast, versatile, very good, but not quite MVDP type classics rider, because then you are making races worse!
Colbrelli made races better, he should ride more like him.
 
Wow it's like your post is about a completely different racer!! Mad Mads Pedersen has 59 wins!! Hundreds of top tens,
this year alone he has a bunch of wins, podiums and top tens from start to finish..
Nobody ever criticised the results he gets (or if they did, they shouldn't), just that they didn't like the way he got those results and felt that the race would have been better had he not been there. A lot of riders have been criticised over the years because fans, or subsections thereof, didn't like the way that they got those results because they felt that whether or not the rider's tactics were the right choice to maximise their own results, they were detrimental to their enjoyment of the race, so they dislike the rider regardless of the efficacy of their tactics. A lot of the time fans know why a rider is employing a particular tactic, but it doesn't mean they have to like it.

Durable riders with a strong sprint often get the brunt of it because of the style of racing; people don't tend to go into sprint stages with expectations of excitement, so while pure sprinters may not be the most popular of winners among the purists, they don't seem from my readings over the years to arouse the same antipathy as riders who sprint after hilly races, because usually fans have higher expectations of excitement in those stages and so when moves are neutralised and a sprint ensues (whether a flat sprint after hills, or an uphill 1km shootout on an unselective mountaintop or a puncheur finish), they tend to perceive that more negatively.

If a rider has the ability to win races in that fashion but varies things up, people will be more forgiving - take Peter Sagan, for example. Sometimes if he needed a win and the best way to win was to sit in the bunch in one of those stages that burn off the pure sprinters and then outsprint the non-specialists in a really dull stage, it's what he would do, but people wouldn't get frustrated at him doing that the way they did for a Simon Gerrans or to a lesser extent Michael Matthews (who started to vary things up a lot more later in his career), because Sagan had multiple other ways to win or podium that he would employ with relative regularity (rather than as an occasional exception). People would likewise be very dismissive of Alejandro Valverde as somebody who had that patented defensive "win the sprint at the top of the hill" style for much of his career; he would come out of his shell from time to time, but it would often be in much smaller races and when it came to racing against the elites he'd go right back to his usual approach. Valverde did have those other weapons - and employed them - but the way he did it and the way he would seldom do it in races where it actually mattered meant he would be perceived more negatively.

In the continuum of "riders who can win sprints after stages requiring durability" in terms of the entertainment they bring to races, with, like, Bettini or Sagan at one end and Gerrans at the other, Pedersen belongs somewhere roughly in the middle for me. I can see why somebody who places him further towards the negative end of that continuum views him negatively, but personally I don't. However, that's more because in all honesty, although he's been one of the top ranked riders in the world for over half a decade, a former World Champion, and five monument podiums, he just doesn't arouse any strong feelings in me, positive or negative. I don't think "oh, this race would have been better with Mads Pedersen in it", but neither do I think - as some here clearly do - "man, this race was made worse by having Mads Pedersen in it". But that's because by and large I just don't think of Mads Pedersen at all.
 
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Nobody ever criticised the results he gets (or if they did, they shouldn't), just that they didn't like the way he got those results and felt that the race would have been better had he not been there. A lot of riders have been criticised over the years because fans, or subsections thereof, didn't like the way that they got those results because they felt that whether or not the rider's tactics were the right choice to maximise their own results, they were detrimental to their enjoyment of the race, so they dislike the rider regardless of the efficacy of their tactics. A lot of the time fans know why a rider is employing a particular tactic, but it doesn't mean they have to like it.

Durable riders with a strong sprint often get the brunt of it because of the style of racing; people don't tend to go into sprint stages with expectations of excitement, so while pure sprinters may not be the most popular of winners among the purists, they don't seem from my readings over the years to arouse the same antipathy as riders who sprint after hilly races, because usually fans have higher expectations of excitement in those stages and so when moves are neutralised and a sprint ensues (whether a flat sprint after hills, or an uphill 1km shootout on an unselective mountaintop or a puncheur finish), they tend to perceive that more negatively.

If a rider has the ability to win races in that fashion but varies things up, people will be more forgiving - take Peter Sagan, for example. Sometimes if he needed a win and the best way to win was to sit in the bunch in one of those stages that burn off the pure sprinters and then outsprint the non-specialists in a really dull stage, it's what he would do, but people wouldn't get frustrated at him doing that the way they did for a Simon Gerrans or to a lesser extent Michael Matthews (who started to vary things up a lot more later in his career), because Sagan had multiple other ways to win or podium that he would employ with relative regularity (rather than as an occasional exception). People would likewise be very dismissive of Alejandro Valverde as somebody who had that patented defensive "win the sprint at the top of the hill" style for much of his career; he would come out of his shell from time to time, but it would often be in much smaller races and when it came to racing against the elites he'd go right back to his usual approach. Valverde did have those other weapons - and employed them - but the way he did it and the way he would seldom do it in races where it actually mattered meant he would be perceived more negatively.

In the continuum of "riders who can win sprints after stages requiring durability" in terms of the entertainment they bring to races, with, like, Bettini or Sagan at one end and Gerrans at the other, Pedersen belongs somewhere roughly in the middle for me. I can see why somebody who places him further towards the negative end of that continuum views him negatively, but personally I don't. However, that's more because in all honesty, although he's been one of the top ranked riders in the world for over half a decade, a former World Champion, and five monument podiums, he just doesn't arouse any strong feelings in me, positive or negative. I don't think "oh, this race would have been better with Mads Pedersen in it", but neither do I think - as some here clearly do - "man, this race was made worse by having Mads Pedersen in it". But that's because by and large I just don't think of Mads Pedersen at all.
Thanks for the fine elaboration.

In which I can see the points clearly to a large extent.

However, I still have to experience examples of "races that Mads ruined".

Quite the opposite, I can easily see where he spices up the races. Now e,g,. the latest Giro edition, occasions where he did not ride for own stage victory but as a puller for Lidl - and where he aggressively pulls the field thin, not just as a ramp-up to action on the Siena stage but on several Giro stages.

And then mentioning of He-Man action man in "lower cat races", for instance Danish RR championship, which I would not say was "thinly populated", on the contrary, but where he swung the baton so violently in one and same great coolness, helping his LIDL teammate to take the red-white cross jersey victory.
This while Mads both passivized competitors by putting on wheels and then fire at will; bombardment of successfull escapes, passed other groups, backed away again, yet escapes, and finally securing silver medal. Alien viewers perhaps exhibited the other riders as amateurs, of which they're certainly not.

I simply love the ferocity in this riding style.
I really cannot see how this kind of racing is "ruining races".
It's completely captivating TV before my eyes.

I miss that part of Mads during this year's Vuelta, where LIDL puts all coins in one and same basket to carry Mads to sprint victory. Certainly sensible, but so wonderfully saved by unwise decisions, which still make it worth watching.

To me, it is less exciting with a Trek that throughout the Vuelta has as its goal to drive Mads to a sprint. So rather a lot of not so wise excursions that may not bear fruit. But of course that doesn't happen when LIDL has the green jersey as its goal...
 
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Because you don't like him.

If he gets to the line with Pogi, Van der Poel or any other for that matter, he wins. In GW last year, he beat Van der Poel fair and square.
This is maybe bit rich. Maybe occasionally, but it's not bombproof. They are pretty straightforward guys both VDP and Pedersen, but imho Mathieu is just that bit more canny and tactical player, who can sense, what to do in say small escape group coming close to the line. And make right decision. That way I rank VDP higher. Pogi is ofc different animal, with one-off GC engine to toy around these two and still lots of speed/explosiveness to play endgame.

It's thin line of decision making in the final hundreds of meters of these stages, in a blink of an eye. I mean inside the team, like Trek for example, to whoever they're riding for, Cicco or Mads, another one thinking I shoulda a woulda coulda.