What about Oscar Pereiro?

[Joey_J]

In his ABC interview, Landis was asked if LA was a fraud, he said “"Well, it depends on what your definition of fraud is, I mean it…look...if he didn't win the Tour, someone else that was doped would have won the Tour. In every single one of those Tours."

Why hasn’t anyone asked (and Landis answered) if it was the same in his Tour. Did they take his Yellow Jersey away from him and just give it to another doper; i.e Oscar Pereiro?

Landis and Pereiro were both on the same team in 05’ and according to Landis, there was a team sponsered doping program going on.

 

[BroDeal]

It sounds like in 2005 FLandis handled a lot of the doping logistics himself, and in 2006 a team funded program was set up. It is hard to imagine that Landis does not know something about Pereiro, though. So far he seems to have concentrated on American riders.

 

[BikeCentric]

I think it not unfair to say that every rider on Phonak was doping during the Hamilton / Landis era - they had something like 6 riders go positve over about a 3-year period if I recall correctly. In an era of notoriously lax controls. And according to Landis Rihs put up the drug money so I'm quite confident in ***-U-MEing that they had at least a semi-systematic doping program going on.

Next I don't you'll find anyone who believes Pereiro was a clean super talent. I think he was a slightly above average doper in a doped peloton.

 

[ricara]

Oscar Pereiro Was DEFINITELY Doping

You can tell a lot just by listening to what the riders say in interviews. After Floyd was popped, they talked to Oscar.

Now, if Oscar were clean he would have said something like, "That's great! I'm glad they're kicking the dopers out of the sport. Then clean riders like myself have a chance of winning."

But he didn't. He hemmed and hawed and mumbled excuses like it wasn't fair to Floyd and that he didn't want to win the Yellow Jersey that way. Which is all just code-talk for, "Gee, I was doping too. If they give me the Yellow Jersey, maybe they'll re-test some of my samples and catch me."

He's just a big fat doper.

 

[Benotti69]

You can tell a lot just by listening to what the riders say in interviews. After Floyd was popped, they talked to Oscar.

Now, if Oscar were clean he would have said something like, "That's great! I'm glad they're kicking the dopers out of the sport. Then clean riders like myself have a chance of winning."

But he didn't. He hemmed and hawed and mumbled excuses like it wasn't fair to Floyd and that he didn't want to win the Yellow Jersey that way. Which is all just code-talk for, "Gee, I was doping too. If they give me the Yellow Jersey, maybe they'll re-test some of my samples and catch me."

He's just a big fat doper.

there's a good idea, retest his samples , but you know they wont

 

[The Hitch]

Ive said it before and ill say it again this is a guy who finished 10th in a tdf once before he won, hasn’t done squat in any race since he won, but for 6 sunny july dates in the alps, he managed to stay with the greatest, most doped up climbers in the world.

From discussion before– Perreiros transformation.

I suppose the fact that he was getting dropped like a stone on the climbs early in the race made me wonder why he wasnt getting dropped later in the race.
Stage 11 (big mountain stage) - loses 26 minutes
Stage 16 (another big mountain stage) - finishes within 2 minutes of Rasmussen
All other mountain stages late in the race - finishes within 2-3 minutes of the winner (except the 'Landis' stage, where he finishes with a couple of minutes of 2nd place).
Same with the time trials:
Prologue - 57th
First TT - 23rd
Final TT - 4th

No, of course there was nothing suspicious with his performance..

But it gets more suspicios when you compare his results in the alps to his rivals.

Here are the time gaps to menchov, kloeden, sastre and evans going into the alps

4 Denis Menchov Russia Rabobank 2'30"
5 Cadel Evans Australia Davitamon-Lotto 2'46"
6 Carlos Sastre Spain Team CSC 3'21"
7 Andreas Klöden Germany T-Mobile Team 3'58"

and here they leaving the alps.

2 Andreas Klöden Germany T-Mobile Team 31
4 Carlos Sastre Spain Team CSC 2'16"
5 Cadel Evans Australia Davitamon-Lotto 4'11"
6 Denis Menchov Russia Rabobank 6'39"

So in all the alpine stages put together, Kloeden took 3 and a half minutes from, Perreiro in the alps, Sastre the super climber took a grand 1 minute, and Menchov and Evans, lost 4 and 2 minutes respectively.
Oh and if it means anything he only lost 2 and a half minutes to super doped up favourite Floyd Landis.

This is to say nothing of people like Rasmussen, Rogers and Leipheimer who Perrerio beat in the alps by a lot lot more.

This is not the performance of someone who is a solid climber, or even a mountain goat. This is the performance of a world class gc contender of the contador and andy schleck variety, something Perreiro never was before, or after those 6 sunny days in July 2006.

Though this is probably the first year where you can look at a top 5 with people like Sastre and Evans – No official doping past, in it, we all know Kloeden has had his demons, and the fact that Perreiro – a nobody going into the tour, managed to stay with these guys is suspicious. But when you look at the fact that he only lost 2 and a half minutes to Landis in the alps, especially considering what Landis was on, and the fact that Landis was behind for most of it and needed to gain time. Well simple logic says Oscar Perreiro can be placed in cartergory - people we know doped, as opposed to cartergory b – people we suspect doped , or for that matter c – people we know didn’t dope, which to my knowledge is pretty much empty (other than perhaps lemond).

 

[hrotha]

I still stand by what I said in that other thread: his performance in the 2006 TdF wasn't extraordinary by his standards, if he doped (and being an ex-Phonak rider it seems likely he did) he didn't do it more in 2006 than during the rest of his career, the suspicious bit is the contrast between his performance in the Alps and in the Pyrenees, not his performance in the Alps by itself, and the reasons his performance worsened after the TdF are several and probably not related to doping (are we to believe he doped throughout his whole career and then suddenly stopped after winning the TdF?).

Also, it's Pereiro. One r.

 

[The Hitch]

I still stand by what I said in that other thread: his performance in the 2006 TdF wasn't extraordinary by his standards, if he doped (and being an ex-Phonak rider it seems likely he did) he didn't do it more in 2006 than during the rest of his career, the suspicious bit is the contrast between his performance in the Alps and in the Pyrenees, not his performance in the Alps by itself, and the reasons his performance worsened after the TdF are several and probably not related to doping (are we to believe he doped throughout his whole career and then suddenly stopped after winning the TdF?).

Also, it's Pereiro. One r.

Perhaps. He won the tdf. This was far more than he ever could have hoped for in his career. Some people like Lance, only care about the thrill of winning, and once its over just want to win again. But others, after winning the tdf, might realise that this is the greatest thing that ever happened to them. Why risk tarnishing it by continuing to dope.

And i do think his performance in itself is suspicious. we are repeating much of what was said in the other thread (who had the best doping programme other than lance), but i will repeat this point again. This is the palmares of Oscar Pereiro

10th tour de france - 2004
10th tour de france - 2005
10th tour de france -2007
11th giro d italia - 2002
1 stage tour de france
1 stage tour of romandie
1 stage tour de suisse

And then you have this great big anomaly in the middle.

1st 2006 tour de france.

Even though you know he won the tour, when you see the 1st, considering the rest of his palmares, you half expect it to say - 2006 tour of lankawi. But no, there it is, clear as day, the grandady of them all. The tour de france, oscar pereiro 2006 champion. Wow

If the step from 4th to the podium is big, and the step from podium to 1st is big, how big is the step from 10th to 1st (or 2nd for that matter)


The equivalent would be Christophe Le Mevel suddenly winning the tdf- and by beating contador and schleck in the mountains no less.

 

[hrotha]

I won't repeat the points from that other thread, but the equivalent would be Le Mevel winning the Tour after gaining half an hour in a breakaway. I won't say anything else because we'll be repeating ourselves.

 

[andy1234]

You can tell a lot just by listening to what the riders say in interviews. After Floyd was popped, they talked to Oscar.

Now, if Oscar were clean he would have said something like, "That's great! I'm glad they're kicking the dopers out of the sport. Then clean riders like myself have a chance of winning."

But he didn't. He hemmed and hawed and mumbled excuses like it wasn't fair to Floyd and that he didn't want to win the Yellow Jersey that way. Which is all just code-talk for, "Gee, I was doping too. If they give me the Yellow Jersey, maybe they'll re-test some of my samples and catch me."

He's just a big fat doper.

Im not saying Pereiro didnt dope, but not pointing his finger at a fellow rider is not a admission of guilt. When you ride on a team or in a bunch with riders week in, week out, it's not so easy to just dismiss them the moment they are caught.
Competitors they may be, but in a lot of cases they are also good friends. Its easy to dismiss and criticise a doper sitting from the sidelines, but not so easy when they are your peers and colleagues.

 

[The Hitch]

I won't repeat the points from that other thread, but the equivalent would be Le Mevel winning the Tour after gaining half an hour in a breakaway. I won't say anything else because we'll be repeating ourselves.

actually we didnt say that much in the other thread, and no harm in repeating what we did. This is afterall the appropriate thread for it.

but this is important - Oscar Pereiros breakway made him even with everyone else, it did not give him a half an hour advantage.
He went into the alps even with everyone else (or 1 minute ahead) and it is his performance in the alps which is what we find suspicious.

Finishing above flandis, sastre, menchov, cuddles, while in the yellow jersey, on big mountain stages is what is suspicious, and the equivalent today would be someone like Le mevel finishing above or with contador, schleck, menchov, sanchez on big mountain stages. (not including that bulls**t into pau where even hushovd finished with contador and schleck)

I dont care if he lost 2 hours in the prologue, and gained it back half an hour at a time over the next 2 weeks.

In the alps he climbed with the best and the most doped up climbers in the world. This is very suspicious.

 

[hrotha]

Landis - 9th in 2005, 23rd in 2004
Sastre - 21st in 2005, 8th in 2004, 9th in 2003, 10th in 2002 + 2nd in 2005 Vuelta
Evans - 8th in 2005
Menchov - 85th in 2005, WD in 2004, 11th in 2003 + 1st in 2005 Vuelta

Coming to the 2006 TdF, before Puerto, they were all second-tier contenders, and Pereiro's results weren't that far from theirs. Again, if Pereiro had been consistent, his performance in the Alps wouldn't have been more suspicious than that of the average rider. It's his recovery that is suspicious, not his climbing ability by itself.

The breakaway didn't make him even, it gave him a couple of minutes plus a yellow jersey, motivation and a goal.

Again, I think he probably doped, but I still find his 2006 TdF consistent with the rest of his career up to that point. He underperformed later for several, mostly psychological reasons, and still later he had quite the crash and that was the end of it.

 

[Squares]

He underperformed later for several... reasons

My personal belief is that he radically cut back his juice after that win to protect that and make sure there was not a stain of doping on his record.

It seems to be a psycological protective mechanism. You can see it in TDekker's article yesterday. Even though he admitted that he doped extensively through his career, he still won the big races he won without being doped.

Same goes for Landis. If you believe his words, he doped all the time but he did not dope before the big Stage 17 attack that broght back his yellow jersey.

Tyler Hamilton has been careful to take any and all punishments and admit doping so long as it did not jeopardize his Olympic Gold medal.

So, it seems, has Pereiro. He likely protected his Yellow by making sure there is no reason for ASO or the UCI to ever go back and look at his samples and take away his biggest win.

 

[Willy_Voet]

My personal belief is that he radically cut back his juice after that win to protect that and make sure there was not a stain of doping on his record.

I recall an interview with him not so long ago that as I read it, he seemed to admit to doping, without admitting to doping. One of these "things were different back then and I'm much happier now" kind of statements.

 

[hrotha]

My personal belief is that he radically cut back his juice after that win to protect that and make sure there was not a stain of doping on his record.

That's a distinct possibility, yes.

(Also Landis admitted he was doped in that stage but let's not get into that)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Pereiro did lose that time in the big mountain stage in order to stagehunt. He lost 26 minutes in that stage, and was only 28 minutes down overall, so he'd stayed in reasonable contact with the heads of state prior to the Pla de Beret stage. He then went stagehunting on a transitional stage and hit the jackpot. I don't think his results in the Alps are that much better than you might reasonably otherwise expect from him - he's not a very good time triallist, yet has two TdF top 10s prior to that and another one afterward; just like how David Arroyo had a couple of Giro top 10s prior to this year's 2nd, so once they'd been given that huge time gain, they did have the capability to stay in contention. Pereiro did it surprisingly well, but not that surprisingly well.

 

[therealtimshady]

i think pereiro is probably ok. remember the peleton were not only stupid enough to give him half an hour but he lost about 2 minutes upto alpe dhuez and cracked on landis miracle stage as well. it was only due to the others suffering as well that he clung on

 

[durianrider]

I went out train'n with em. All we took was oranges, water and sports drink.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5HjL7yMc_U

 

[The Hitch]

Landis - 9th in 2005, 23rd in 2004
Sastre - 21st in 2005, 8th in 2004, 9th in 2003, 10th in 2002 + 2nd in 2005 Vuelta
Evans - 8th in 2005
Menchov - 85th in 2005, WD in 2004, 11th in 2003 + 1st in 2005 Vuelta

.

Thats not fair.
I included all Pereiros best results. You are including these guys worst
Heres how it should be


Sastre - 1st 2008, 4th 2007, 2nd 2005 vuelta, 2nd 2007 vuelta, 3rd 2009 giro 8th 2004 tour , 9th 2003 tour 10th 2002 tour. 3 stages tdf.

Evans, 2nd 2007, 2nd 2008, 8th 2005, 3rd 2005 vuelta, World Champion. Victory in Tour of Romandie, Flech Walone. 1 stage tdf.

Menchov - 1st -2005 vuelta, 1st 2007 vuelta, 1st 2009 giro. 3rd 2008 tour. 3rd 2010 tour. Victory in Tour of Romandie. 1 stage tdf

Perreiro 10th 2004, 10th 2005, 10th 2007, 1 stage tdf.

Landis 9th 2005 - proven mega doped up in 2006. Victories in Paris Nice, Tour of California.

His gt palmares is far worse than sastre evans and menchov and as it happens, about the same as Flandis, the guy who was so doped up he was caught.

 

[hrotha]

Thats not fair.
I included all Pereiros best results. You are including these guys worst

No, I included the ones before the 2006 TdF, ie. the relevant ones.

 

[galaxy1]

ridiculous thread, totally missing the point. Pereiro's result in that race was purely down to luck and tactics.
his results are exactly in line with my expectations, as a guy who usually hangs on to the front group, but wasn't initially going for the GC win.
you don't get top 10s in the tour without being a very solid climber.

none of this sheds any light on whether he doped or not.

 

[movingtarget]

It was the idiocy of the rival teams and their director's to give away so much time to Pereiro in his breakaway. Although not one of the favourites to win the race he was still a top 10 or top 20 rider. It happened before in the Tour, in about 1960 I think. Pereiro was a good climber, a great descender and a decent time trialist. A similar thing almost happened this year in the Giro with David Arroyo although the circumstances were completely different. So much for race radios making races too predictable.

There was a total lack of respect for Pereiro's abilities. Any top 20 rider being gifted so much time would be psyched up to hang on as long as possible. As for doping, his lack of results since 2006 mean nothing. He had some bad falls and motivation may have been a problem after being tagged "the forgotten winner of the Tour de France."

 

[BroDeal]

Sorry, but I do not think of Pereiro as the winner of the TdF, not when riders Indurain through Armstrong are still considered winners. It would be easier to accept if it were Kloden or Evans, both of whom stood on the podium before or after 2006. The whole 2006 podium was a bit of a joke. Landis was caught for testosterone. Pereiro was caught for Salbutamol, but was allowed to present a post dated TUE. Kloden and his team took a side trip to Freiberg to get blood transfusions.

 

[luckyboy]

Pereiro was caught for Salbutamol, but was allowed to present a post dated TUE.

Damn asthma Must be contagious in the peloton.

 

[Joey_J]

ridiculous thread, totally missing the point.

Most of my point for starting the thread is why hasn't Landis been asked the question about Pereiro? Or simply offered it as part/most of his current frustration. If Landis knows that Pereiro doped, it must drive him crazy.