What exactly is a micro-dose?

[TourOfSardinia]

Thomas Frei used the word micro-dose as reported here:
CN
- but what does that actual mean.
Are the doses getting smaller to avoid detection?
Surely if you just need to drink a litre of water to "burn the evidence"
it can't be that effective - can it?

thumb up to Swiss honesty.
thumbs down to Italian hypocrisy!

 

[Kennf1]

Thomas Frei used the word micro-dose as reported here:
CN
- but what does that actual mean.
Are the doses getting smaller to avoid detection?
Surely if you just need to drink a litre of water to "burn the evidence"
it can't be that effective - can it?

thumb up to Swiss honesty.
thumbs down to Italian hypocrisy!

Micro-dose means a smaller dose than you would have taken in 2001. As to what the actual quantity or frequency is, I don't know.

 

[joe_papp]

Micro-dose means a smaller dose than you would have taken in 2001. As to what the actual quantity or frequency is, I don't know.

MD = using a dose of approx 10% or less of the initial therapeutic doses, every 2-3 days.

 

[Jancouver]

MD = using a dose of approx 10% or less of the initial therapeutic doses, every 2-3 days.

But he stated it was his first dose in 3 months? So are you saying the "full 100% dose" will last 3 months and after you just need to "maintain it" by taking these micro doses?

 

[Beech Mtn]

Thanks for the info Joe. By the way, what's your take on Frei's confession?

 

[Roadent]

Confessed? please... obviously a liar that loves cancer - how can you confess to something that doesn't happen, especially at Astana (whom he rode for previously). Seriously: if you confess - you're lying; if you deny - you're lying. If you actually tell people what you did and how you would usually avoid detection: boy, you must be totally lying...

Doping? no way....

 

[joe_papp]

But he stated it was his first dose in 3 months? So are you saying the "full 100% dose" will last 3 months and after you just need to "maintain it" by taking these micro doses?

I saw that, too, and thought it might be an example of a rider either getting bad advice (thus getting caught) or obfuscating in his public statements to protect his fellow dopers.

No way a full 100% dose lasts for three months. That is, you can't go through the normal 3-4 week dose regimen, then stop for three months, then start microdosing and expect to have your blood boosted to the level that it was during week 6 (2 weeks after you finished you first 4-week cycle). I don't know what he was on about. Maybe the translation was wrong or something. I don't know if he made his admission in English, French, German...?

 

[FKLance]

Maybe he just didn't have the money or feel the need to microdose during the whole year! (winter months)

 

[Awolpe]

Thomas Frei used the word micro-dose as reported here:
CN
- but what does that actual mean.
Are the doses getting smaller to avoid detection?
Surely if you just need to drink a litre of water to "burn the evidence"
it can't be that effective - can it?

thumb up to Swiss honesty.
thumbs down to Italian hypocrisy!

it doesnt make a difference what size it is if its dope its dope

 

[santacruz]

Perhaps by taking micro dosages frequently with lots of fluids you can avoid detection while reaping the rewards?? Perhaps he did it very frequently?? Maybe there are bigger dosages used for bigger fitness gains like ruling the TdF, but that requires much more money for doing the whole elaborate and complicated masking ritual? And then micro dosages which give a nice little boost for the smaller rider who is not as rich, or not looking to risk as much getting busted. He is just a small fry trying to get by, and willing to dope just a little bit to keep from getting dropped from the pro teams for lack of fitness/ability?

 

[Wolves-Lower]

Anybody know what his Bio-Pass-Dope was?

It just goes to show you

SIZE DOES MATTER!

 

[curium]

I saw that, too, and thought it might be an example of a rider either getting bad advice (thus getting caught) or obfuscating in his public statements to protect his fellow dopers.

No way a full 100% dose lasts for three months. That is, you can't go through the normal 3-4 week dose regimen, then stop for three months, then start microdosing and expect to have your blood boosted to the level that it was during week 6 (2 weeks after you finished you first 4-week cycle). I don't know what he was on about. Maybe the translation was wrong or something. I don't know if he made his admission in English, French, German...?

3 months is the average life span of a red blood cell.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

3 months is the average life span of a red blood cell.

Sure but red blood cell levels would only stay elevated for three months if the cell death/cell replacement rates stay equal during that time..... which they wouldn't because elevated RBC levels generally leads to some suppression of RBC production (ie lowered retic)..... unless of course you micrdose with EPO to stimulate RBC production (and keep your retic looking normal for the bio passport as an added bonus.)

 

[Cobblestones]

To make it simple, instead of taking one big dose once (which would lead to spikes in blood parameters and metabolites, both of which can lead to a positive), you take many, many small doses stretched out over time (which leads to only slightly elevated parameters and metabolites at any point in time). At the end, you reap more or less the same benefits (because the overall effect depends on the total amount of stuff you take), but the detection risk is much, much reduced, practically eliminated, since all the parameters you can test for (off score, retic, metabolites) only differ slightly from normal, (not enough to declare a positive).

 

[python]

jaksche told us exactly what was his micro dosing protocol. those curious enough can find it in public sources. the idea is to take a dose small enough before bed so that in the morning it’s out of your system.


but in general, there are dozens up on dozens of epo micro dosing protocols. all depend on several things:

(i) the type of epo variant (alfa, beta, gamma, delta, omega) or commonly know by their generic names. all have drastically different clearance rates and require different dosing
(ii) route of administration: intravenous(rare) or subcutaneous (typically)
(iii) the type of doping phase: RBC built up or maintenance
(iv) epo used as a standalone programme or in conjunction with some blood transfusion protocol.
(v) an athlete’s metabolic/physiological uniqueness (top programmes administered by the best docs as it requires thorough medical analysis and feedback testing)

Etc

 

[BroDeal]

Here is a question: How effective is microdosing EPO?

I looked up the half life of rEPO and it is given as 4 - 13 hours. For simplicity let's say that it is 12 hours. The length of time that it is detectable is generally given as three days, so let's use 72 hours, or six half lives. That means that at the end of the 72 hours only 1.56% of the rEPO will remain. To dope with a small enough dose to fall below the detection threshold in 12 hours only use 3% of a regular dose could be used. Doping every night would take 33 consecutive nights to get one regular dose.

My figures might be off but even using Joe's 10% figure, it would still take ten consecutive days to equal one regular dose. I seem to recall that EPO is generally taken every three days during a phase to build up your Hct. Is that right? That is about the frequency of use in Hamilton's doping schedule and the schedules from BALCO. If that three day figure is correct then it calls into question the effectiveness of microdosing.

 

[python]

if you read the post above you'd see that there at least 5 known variants of epo
with drastically different half-lives/clearance rates. so your question would lead nowhere if the real knowledge is sought.

 

[BroDeal]

if you read the post above you'd see that there at least 5 known variants of epo
with drastically different half-lives/clearance rates. so your question would lead nowhere if the real knowledge is sought.

The numbers may be fuzzy but it seems to me that microdosing would not be effective for many combinations of drug half life, frequency of usual use, and length of the detection window.

 

[python]

the recombinant epos are mixed to to complicate/smother their electrophoresis signature once it extracted from a gel. liitle to do with thei half life. it has everything to do with the way the epo positivity criteria is mandated by wada.

that's why, for example dynepo was 'seen' in rasmussen but not officially detected until the electrophoresis image of dynepo was clarified. same with cera. wada labs qualify all those case as inconclusive whilst they know what's go on. such is the high level of a legally defensible positivity criteria.

 

[python]

The numbers may be fuzzy but it seems to me that microdosing would not be effective for many combinations of drug half life, frequency of usual use, and length of the detection window.

the recombinant epos are mixed to complicate/smother their electrophoresis signature once it's extracted from a gel. liitle to do with thei half life. it has everything to do with the way the epo positivity criteria is mandated by wada.

that's why, for example dynepo was 'seen' in rasmussen but not officially detected until the electrophoresis image of dynepo was clarified. same with cera. wada labs qualify all those cases as inconclusive whilst they know what's going on. such is the high level of a legally defensible positivity criteria *the athletes are taking advantage of by mixing various molecular weight variants

 

[soslow]

Micro enough and all you have is a placebo effect

At what point does the microdoping, to avoid detection, become clinically insignificant? The detection method may be more sensitive than the body's reaction. Would this microdose have really improved his performance, or is he just juicing up on the placebo effect?
Makes me wonder how many guys are being doped by crafty trainers who tell them they are getting the latest-greatest totally undetectable PE drug around, when all it is just a shot of saline, and the placebo effect helps them go harder longer.

 

[Polish]

At what point does the microdoping, to avoid detection, become clinically insignificant? The detection method may be more sensitive than the body's reaction. Would this microdose have really improved his performance, or is he just juicing up on the placebo effect?
Makes me wonder how many guys are being doped by crafty trainers who tell them they are getting the latest-greatest totally undetectable PE drug around, when all it is just a shot of saline, and the placebo effect helps them go harder longer.

There IS a placebo effect - small edge but it is there.

So are the riders who think they are getting "latest-greatest totally undetectable PE drug" dopers? I mean they think they are doping and are getting an edge from the placebo effect....

Or how about the crafty trainer who knows his rider is a goody two shoes who would never do dope. He administers the genuine "latest-greatest totally undetectable PE drug" but tells the rider it is an Iron Shot. Is that rider a doper?

 

[Big GMaC]

Or how about the crafty trainer who knows his rider is a goody two shoes who would never do dope. He administers the genuine "latest-greatest totally undetectable PE drug" but tells the rider it is an Iron Shot. Is that rider a doper?

Thats a pretty low blow to be aiming at LeMond. Just say it troll