What kind of team leaders were Tyler and Floyd?

[miloman]

Does anyone know if Tyler and/or Floyd have been accused of pressuring teammates to use PEDs and providing banned substance while they were team leaders on CSC (Tyler) and Phonak (Tyler and Floyd)? I know that it has been implied that Lance did so while the two rode for him at Postal. I was curious if Tyler and Floyd brought the same “winning at all costs” attitude with them when they moved on to head their own teams. If so, what are the legal ramifications?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Probably more fruitful to look at the managers, DSs, and Drs that worked within the web of teams. You can count on it not being like the old days where you were shot up, without question, with what was ostensibly a 'vitamin shot'. The boys know what's going on, regardless of their protestations...

 

[hrotha]

You see, the folks at Phonak and CSC haven't been that talkative. It's probably Armstrong's antagonizing ways which led to so many people talking about his role.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Does anyone know if Tyler and/or Floyd have been accused of pressuring teammates to use PEDs and providing banned substance while they were team leaders on CSC (Tyler) and Phonak (Tyler and Floyd)? I know that it has been implied that Lance did so while the two rode for him at Postal. I was curious if Tyler and Floyd brought the same “winning at all costs” attitude with them when they moved on to head their own teams. If so, what are the legal ramifications?

No, no-one has made that accusation against either Tyler or Floyd.

Both joined Phonak after being on USPS - and looking at the Phonak setup it would seem doping was already part of their set up before either arrived.

 

[Benotti69]

boy this is scraping the bottom of the barrel in the 'quest' to make Armstrong look like he did what everyone else in the peloton did

 

[IzzyStradlin]

boy this is scraping the bottom of the barrel in the 'quest' to make Armstrong look like he did what everyone else in the peloton did

Yep. And to top it off, it seems that by most all accounts Tyler and Floyd were well liked dudes who rode hard and were respected by most everyone. Floyd was a quirky dude, and everybody LOVED Tyler. They did drugs, their teammates did drugs, their competitors did drugs.

The OP is doing a **** poor job trying to cast aspersions. It is not surprising that Armstrong facilitated and encouraged drug use. EVERYBODY did. That's pro sports. Thing is, everyone but Armstrong has come to terms with this. So the denials just make him look worse.

 

[Polish]

Floyd was a great team leader imo.

Even though he won in 2006 with the weakest team since LeMond's '89 win. Floyd had nothing but praise and compliments for their efforts.
Never critisized them or their support.
And the team rode as hard as they could due to that leadership.
2006 was a GREAT Tour btw. Epic.

 

[MarkvW]

boy this is scraping the bottom of the barrel in the 'quest' to make Armstrong look like he did what everyone else in the peloton did

Well, didn't he? Gosh, today three Tour TEAMS are implicated in doping. That implies an organized, dirty peloton across the board.

Armstrong was a better cheat, that's all. The pro peloton is, was, and (probably) always will be filthy. In bike racing terms, Armstrong is just one cheat among many.

If you want to hate Armstrong because of his vile personal attributes, fine. But, to paraphrase a line from one of my favorite movies, the peloton was a going brothel long before Lance came to town.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well, didn't he? Gosh, today three Tour TEAMS are implicated in doping. That implies an organized, dirty peloton across the board.

Armstrong was a better cheat, that's all. The pro peloton is, was, and (probably) always will be filthy. In bike racing terms, Armstrong is just one cheat among many.

If you want to hate Armstrong because of his vile personal attributes, fine. But, to paraphrase a line from one of my favorite movies, the peloton was a going brothel long before Lance came to town.

Well did "everyone" else have the UCI in their pocket?

I don't remember Floyd or Tyler getting to buy their way out of their positives.

 

[MacRoadie]

Well did "everyone" else have the UCI in their pocket?

I don't remember Floyd or Tyler getting to buy their way out of their positives.

Don't forget special one-on-one "seminars" by lab bosses on how the testing process is performed...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Floyd was a great team leader imo.

Even though he won in 2006 with the weakest team since LeMond's '89 win. Floyd had nothing but praise and compliments for their efforts.
Never critisized them or their support.
And the team rode as hard as they could due to that leadership.
2006 was a GREAT Tour btw. Epic.

You must have serious case of 'yellow fever'... Two posts in a row that don't want to make me hit myself with a hammer. Nicely done.

Bonus points for bringing up a team leader that gives credit to his team. There's some class. Wigans needs a tutorial...

 

[Franklin]

Floyd was a great team leader imo.

Even though he won in 2006 with the weakest team since LeMond's '89 win. Floyd had nothing but praise and compliments for their efforts.
Never critisized them or their support.
And the team rode as hard as they could due to that leadership.
2006 was a GREAT Tour btw. Epic.

To be fair... I remember a Rabo rider say something along the following lines after Perreiro grabbed the yellow after that monster-escape:

"Those Phonak guys are to arrogant. They act so tough... so today nobody helped them when they let the gap grow to big. Serves them right."

Up till then Phonak had been quite strong in the pyrenees and the flat stages. Phonak wasn't an extremely weak team that year. They had people like Hugo Pena, Moerenhout, Botero, Moos, Merckx, N. Jalabert, Grabsch, Elmiger. I guess the praise from Floyd was correct, they performed at their best.

Sure, that's hardly Discovery, but I would pitch it against Mercato Uno any day And to be contentious, if Vino wasn't there I would say AC didn't have a very strong team either in 2010.

 

[porkchop_sideburns]

Yep. And to top it off, it seems that by most all accounts Tyler and Floyd were well liked dudes who rode hard and were respected by most everyone. Floyd was a quirky dude, and everybody LOVED Tyler. They did drugs, their teammates did drugs, their competitors did drugs.

The OP is doing a **** poor job trying to cast aspersions. It is not surprising that Armstrong facilitated and encouraged drug use. EVERYBODY did. That's pro sports. Thing is, everyone but Armstrong has come to terms with this. So the denials just make him look worse.

Who is this "everyone" that you are referring to? The only people that have supposedly come to terms with doping are those that have gotten caught. Unfortunately, you can count on one hand the number of non-caught (notice I did not say "clean") riders that have spoken out.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Who is this "everyone" that you are referring to? The only people that have supposedly come to terms with doping are those that have gotten caught. Unfortunately, you can count on one hand the number of non-caught (notice I did not say "clean") riders that have spoken out.

I'm being generous and accepting shrugs, non-denials and changes of subject as tacit confessions and an attempt to move on. Nobody else is sticking to the 'never tested positive and there is no evidence otherwise' story.

 

[MarkvW]

Well did "everyone" else have the UCI in their pocket?

I don't remember Floyd or Tyler getting to buy their way out of their positives.

Lance is the one under the microscope. If the same microscope were turned on other past champions, you'd see all sorts of ugliness.

I can't believe that the UCI was like an innocent virgin that was corrupted by big bad Lance. The UCI probably extended lots of "courtesies" to other champions both before and after Lance.

 

[red_flanders]

The UCI probably extended lots of "courtesies" to other champions both before and after Lance.

Certainly possible. Is there any evidence of this, or specifically Tyler and/or Floyd doing such a thing?

For my part I seriously doubt it as neither has remotely the marketing power Lance did and neither came to prominence at such a critical time as Lance in '99.

 

[mrmoore]

Lance Armstrong's War

Lance Armstrong's War by Daniel Coyle covers the leadership styles of both Hamilton and Landis at Phonak. Hamilton was an excellent leader and did a great job of building up the team capabilities on the road. Landis inherited the team from Hamilton and, while not the leader that Tyler was, seemed to do a decent job.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Lance is the one under the microscope. If the same microscope were turned on other past champions, you'd see all sorts of ugliness.

I can't believe that the UCI was like an innocent virgin that was corrupted by big bad Lance. The UCI probably extended lots of "courtesies" to other champions both before and after Lance.

Lance paying the UCI was known about back in 2004 and it wasn't him the microscope was set on but the UCI.

To the blue - as both Tyler & Floyd were caught we can assume that 'courtesy' didn't extend to them.

 

[Mont Ventoux]

Lance is the one under the microscope. If the same microscope were turned on other past champions, you'd see all sorts of ugliness.

I can't believe that the UCI was like an innocent virgin that was corrupted by big bad Lance. The UCI probably extended lots of "courtesies" to other champions both before and after Lance.

I'd say a pretty morally bankrupt UCI met their match in the likes of big bad cancerous Lance.

Yah sure, you might see " ugliness" elsewhere, but you sure won't find the festering cancer that is PHarmstrong.

 

[porkchop_sideburns]

I'm being generous and accepting shrugs, non-denials and changes of subject as tacit confessions and an attempt to move on. Nobody else is sticking to the 'never tested positive and there is no evidence otherwise' story.

Point taken. BTW - Great username!

 

[miloman]

Personal dislike for Lance Armstrong aside, my question is really would the cycling community think differently of Tyler and Floyd if it was uncovered that they were every bit as forceful and manipulative as Armstrong inside their respective teams when it came to use of PEDs? What would you think of them if you found out that they coerced their teammates into juicing up to try and help them win the Tour and even provided the drugs? As much as I applaud them now for what appears to be a sincere attempt to fix the huge problem of doping in the peloton; if they used similar tactic of force and coercion on their teammates to further their personal ambitions, aren’t they just more amiable, and in Floyd’s case, quirky version of the Boss himself? I’m curious if they’ve contacted former teammates to apologize for exposing them to possible future sanctions, not to mention chronic health problems in say 10 or 15 years? I see the next step in this drama being a rash of lawsuits filed against teams, DS, managers, staff and big name team leaders with deep pockets like Armstrong, whose actions were so duplicitous. There appears to be a lot of mud yet to be slung!

 

[D-Queued]

Personal dislike for Lance Armstrong aside, my question is really would the cycling community think differently of Tyler and Floyd if it was uncovered that they were every bit as forceful and manipulative as Armstrong inside their respective teams when it came to use of PEDs? What would you think of them if you found out that they coerced their teammates into juicing up to try and help them win the Tour and even provided the drugs? As much as I applaud them now for what appears to be a sincere attempt to fix the huge problem of doping in the peloton; if they used similar tactic of force and coercion on their teammates to further their personal ambitions, aren’t they just more amiable, and in Floyd’s case, quirky version of the Boss himself? I’m curious if they’ve contacted former teammates to apologize for exposing them to possible future sanctions, not to mention chronic health problems in say 10 or 15 years? I see the next step in this drama being a rash of lawsuits filed against teams, DS, managers, staff and big name team leaders with deep pockets like Armstrong, whose actions were so duplicitous. There appears to be a lot of mud yet to be slung!

Interesting thread and good question.

It isn't clear that there were as many newbies or non-Euros riding for Floyd and Tyler. Moreover, they were not and could not be evangelists for EPO - at least not in the same way since it was standard practice by then. They were also not Ferrari's #1 clients.

Given the personalities, I can see Floyd knocking on a teammate's door to ask if he has any extra 'cause Floyd forgot his. Or, even better, hiding a teammate's stash as a practical joke.

This is very different from Lance making references to 'run like you stole something'. Somehow the need to go over the line has always been a bit more pronounced.

One is a pusher, the other a prankster.

Dave.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Personal dislike for Lance Armstrong aside, my question is really would the cycling community think differently of Tyler and Floyd if it was uncovered that they were every bit as forceful and manipulative as Armstrong inside their respective teams when it came to use of PEDs? What would you think of them if you found out that they coerced their teammates into juicing up to try and help them win the Tour and even provided the drugs? As much as I applaud them now for what appears to be a sincere attempt to fix the huge problem of doping in the peloton; if they used similar tactic of force and coercion on their teammates to further their personal ambitions, aren’t they just more amiable, and in Floyd’s case, quirky version of the Boss himself? I’m curious if they’ve contacted former teammates to apologize for exposing them to possible future sanctions, not to mention chronic health problems in say 10 or 15 years? I see the next step in this drama being a rash of lawsuits filed against teams, DS, managers, staff and big name team leaders with deep pockets like Armstrong, whose actions were so duplicitous. There appears to be a lot of mud yet to be slung!

What if Tyler and Floyd turned out to be bank robbers? Would that change people's opinion. What if they are both aliens from Planet X? What if Floyd wears Spiderman Underoos? What if monkeys regularly fly out of Tyler's buttt?

Do you have any evidence that Tyler and Floyd pressured teammates to dope?

 

[Benotti69]

If Hamilton and Landis had even a smidgen of Armstrong's narcissism we would have seen it in their actions in the peloton, anecdotal evidence from other team mates, fellow riders and TV interviews. Especially as Armstrong would be using it to destroy their credibility.

But as i said this is another thread to make Armstrong look like another ordinary member of the pro peloton,he doped and did all the other stuff to reach the 'level playing field'.

He really really really does deserve his 7 TdF wins because he competed against the big dopers and he levelled the playing field with his doping but it was his high cadence, 6 hours a day on the bike and weight loss due to fighting and destroying the cancer in his body that really made the difference.

give it over. you aint gonna convince anyone.

 

[greenedge]

Floyd seemed like a great leader as he won a GT. Tyler might have won a GT if he stayed at CSC for longer