What REALLY bothers you?

[cycladianpirate]

The doping?

Or the lying about doping?

 

[Netserk]

Primarily the game, not the players.

 

[SeriousSam]

The hypocrisy regarding doping. That's what really gets to me. Just unbearable.

Voting for lying as it' close, but lying needn't involve hypocrisy and hypocrisy needn't involve lying.

 

[BYOP88]

The doping for me. Without doping you'd have no lying about doping.

 

[Mishrak]

The holier than thou attitude some riders have as though they're clean despite their unbelievable performances. We know, we have known, we're not stupid. You can't fake us out with the "I'm clean believe me when I say it" mantras. We won't believe you because your performance is on the cusp of being unbelievable.

So the lying for me. If you're doping, dodge the question or refuse to answer. Don't patronize me and try to claim marginal gains or more training.

 

[go crazy]

The hypocrisy regarding doping. That's what really gets to me. Just unbearable.

Voting for lying as it' close, but lying needn't involve hypocrisy and hypocrisy needn't involve lying.

^^^This x 1000. I'm no Armstrong defender, but I'm so sick of him being the scapegoat for everything that went on in that era. Riis admitted to be a glowing hot mess of EPO, yet he still has his title, and is allowed in the sport? AC gets popped for an ultra-tiny almost undetectable amount of testosterone, and so they give the jersey to Andy Schleck! The guys Tygart gave a pass to, just so he could get "his" guy, despite the fact these other guys are just as guilty. The Giro honoring Pantani, despite his career made by doping.

And on and on and on and on.

It's just so hypocritical that once certain guys went down in flames, everything seems to be right in the cycling world, regardless of what everyone else did.

 

[Mishrak]

AC was popped for clenbuterol, not testosterone. A masking agent. But still a very very very very very very very very small amount.

 

[Benotti69]

The doping for me. Without doping you'd have no lying about doping.

Bingo.


.............

 

[the sceptic]

^^^This x 1000. I'm no Armstrong defender, but I'm so sick of him being the scapegoat for everything that went on in that era. Riis admitted to be a glowing hot mess of EPO, yet he still has his title, and is allowed in the sport? AC gets popped for an ultra-tiny almost undetectable amount of testosterone, and so they give the jersey to Andy Schleck! The guys Tygart gave a pass to, just so he could get "his" guy, despite the fact these other guys are just as guilty. The Giro honoring Pantani, despite his career made by doping.

And on and on and on and on.

It's just so hypocritical that once certain guys went down in flames, everything seems to be right in the cycling world, regardless of what everyone else did.

I get that people want to gloat and celebrate the victory after all the years of fighting the Armstrong bots. But maybe its time to let it go now? Armstrong is dead and buried, obsessing over him is just a waste of time and energy. Maybe Betsy could forgive too?

 

[Energy Starr]

I get that people want to gloat and celebrate the victory after all the years of fighting the Armstrong bots. But maybe its time to let it go now? Armstrong is dead and buried, obsessing over him is just a waste of time and energy. Maybe Betsy could forgive too?

True but it's still fun to have fun at his expense...

 

[blackcat]

The holier than thou attitude some riders have as though they're clean despite their unbelievable performances. We know, we have known, we're not stupid. You can't fake us out with the "I'm clean believe me when I say it" mantras. We won't believe you because your performance is on the cusp of being unbelievable.

So the lying for me. If you're doping, dodge the question or refuse to answer. Don't patronize me and try to claim marginal gains or more training.

i dont know what else i could do to be cleaner- dawg
not fully- MC

 

[Libertine Seguros]

AC was popped for clenbuterol, not testosterone. A masking agent. But still a very very very very very very very very small amount.

How do you think Ivan Basso feels? He sat out two years, and he only ever INTENDED to dope!

 

[Marco Pantani]

Lying about doping in football, basketball etc. thats what bothers me.

I'm pretty fine with doping in cycling tbh, even though I'd prefer, if they could do their job without ruining their health.

 

[Parrulo]

"It's all about the game, and how you play it"

I am aware of "the game" and i know those who want to succeed in professional sports, have to play it. I loved it if that wasn't the truth, but it is and there is nothing i can real do about it. There is too much money and fame involved for people to say no to shortcuts.

So i just take it for what it is. However i don't like to see my intelligence insulted so when riders go on PR crusades on how they are winning clean because they work harder than others and stuff like that, it really gets on my nerves.

I hope every doper gets caught, even the ones i like, but i am under no illusion that the sport will ever be clean.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

The politicians and moneymen behind sport that will use and abuse anything for a penny and power, and the total lack of sportsmanship or morals displayed by those athletes milking the public trust.

I'm not too fond of the fact the it's often the least desirable and possibly most disturbed humans that are held up as heroes and the public repeatedly lap it up without realising they are being played.

Hold your hand up if you like "The Godfather Trilogy"?

I don't

---

I guess the lying would be my pick.

 

[del1962]

What really bother me are people like Riis still in the sport, not only did he dope as a rider, but he enabled his team to dope.

 

[BroDeal]

Doping per se does not bother me much. The riders gotta do what they gotta do. There are two things I take issue with. The first is corruption, of which the lying is a byproduct, and the second is the distortion of results.

When the powers that be decided to pretend to fight doping rather than ignore it like most rational sports management, they chose a path of corruption that has infected everything. They made lying a necessity for everyone remotely connected to pro cycling. It is hard not to think that those who deceive the public about doping would not put their thumbs on the scale in other ways. There is zero faith in the integrity of competition. It has exhibited itself in outrageous ways, like "Luigi" Cancellara telling the press the Puerto outcasts should not be at the Tour of Cali.

The situation today looks worse than ever. Instead of riders being able to take whatever they are comfortable taking, doping is reserved for those on big teams that can beat the bio passport. This is true cycling at two speeds--three if we include Froome.

The most galling thing about the situation is the way the sport denies the obvious, that doping has been rampant and pretty much everyone is culpable. It was bad enough when it was the UCI was using a scapegoating policy to pretend the problem was only a few bad guys, but now there is an entire industry dedicated to protecting the sport by blaming Armstrong for everything. Who needs McQuaid when you have Race Radio. Some of the stories being peddled (pedaled?) are ludicrous; people are actually buying these self-serving excuses of being forced to dope.

As to the second point, I do not trust any of the results. There are riders like Froome who I doubt could even get a pro contract in a clean version of cycling. The large impact of the dope has rendered the results meaningless. Without meaningful results, there is not much of a sport.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Hold your hand up if you like "The Godfather Trilogy"?

I don't

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[buckle]

It's the culture of kickbacks and the bizarre belief, especially in the Anglo-Saxon World, that unless someone speaks, swears and looks like Joe Pesci, that person is not a gangster. Armstrong was at the centre of a full-scale criminal racket and was enabled in this process by scores of hangers on. No wonder the bankers screwed us over. Easy money for them when dealing with suckers like us.

 

[buckle]

The politicians and moneymen behind sport that will use and abuse anything for a penny and power, and the total lack of sportsmanship or morals displayed by those athletes milking the public trust.

I'm not too fond of the fact the it's often the least desirable and possibly most disturbed humans that are held up as heroes and the public repeatedly lap it up without realising they are being played.

Hold your hand up if you like "The Godfather Trilogy"?

I don't

---

I guess the lying would be my pick.

The most significant part is the prologue (sic) of Part One where Vito Corleone deals with the supplicant, Bonasera, on the day Vito's daughter is to be married. The criminal tells the law abiding Bonasera that the game is rigged and the only way to deal with a problem is by Vito's methods: "Why did you go to the police first?", asks Vito ...

 

[blackcat]

It's the culture of kickbacks and the bizarre belief, especially in the Anglo-Saxon World, that unless someone speaks, swears and looks like Joe Pesci, that person is not a gangster. Armstrong was at the centre of a full-scale criminal racket and was enabled in this process by scores of hangers on. No wonder the bankers screwed us over. Easy money for them when dealing with suckers like us.

but like Brodeal said, its a spectrum, and Armtrong was just the figurehead of a pole.

now, i do take issue with one element that Brodeal wrote. It is a little inscrutable or incoherent, when corruption is the major criticism, which filter to the results.

but starting with the cortisone positive in 99 and the bribe by Gorski to Hein, then the new bribe in 2001 TdSuisse positive, and maybe the cuffs on Mayo, Hamilton, and p'raps even Floyd... you cant divorce Lance from the corruption. He was a key player, with Bill Stapleton, not merely Hein and Aigle UCI hq.

I have minor issue with the doping, because I know Armstrong was only doing what came before him, so I dont expect Talansrky and Garmin to compete on bread and water with a hand tied behind their back.

But Armstrong did meddle behind the scenes. Corruption has always existed in cycling, buying races, etc. But this was on a material different scale. And has no real precedence.

 

[the sceptic]

Doping per se does not bother me much. The riders gotta do what they gotta do. There are two things I take issue with. The first is corruption, of which the lying is a byproduct, and the second is the distortion of results.

When the powers that be decided to pretend to fight doping rather than ignore it like most rational sports management, they chose a path of corruption that has infected everything. They made lying a necessity for everyone remotely connected to pro cycling. It is hard not to think that those who deceive the public about doping would not put their thumbs on the scale in other ways. There is zero faith in the integrity of competition. It has exhibited itself in outrageous ways, like "Luigi" Cancellara telling the press the Puerto outcasts should not be at the Tour of Cali.

The situation today looks worse than ever. Instead of riders being able to take whatever they are comfortable taking, doping is reserved for those on big teams that can beat the bio passport. This is true cycling at two speeds--three if we include Froome.

The most galling thing about the situation is the way the sport denies the obvious, that doping has been rampant and pretty much everyone is culpable. It was bad enough when it was the UCI was using a scapegoating policy to pretend the problem was only a few bad guys, but now there is an entire industry dedicated to protecting the sport by blaming Armstrong for everything. Who needs McQuaid when you have Race Radio. Some of the stories being peddled (pedaled?) are ludicrous; people are actually buying these self-serving excuses of being forced to dope.

As to the second point, I do not trust any of the results. There are riders like Froome who I doubt could even get a pro contract in a clean version of cycling. The large impact of the dope has rendered the results meaningless. Without meaningful results, there is not much of a sport.

good post.

 

[lemoogle]

Remove the lying about the doping, there just wouldn't be much doping. That is my view on things

 

[HappyCycling]

Regarding lying about doping: could there ever possibly be an 'agent' test of sorts, someone with a naturally gifted cardiovascular system and talent for bike racing, someone who clearly is a physical specimen made for racing (with scientific data to show they are gifted) that could demonstrate that there is prevalent doping amongst the professional peloton simply by being a clean guinea pig for the purposes of exposing obvious and continuous doping..

For example, we know on particular climbs with perfect training/conditioning this person would simply beat the others on an even playing field and by not clearly being superior to someone with obviously less gifted attributes demonstrates something is awry?

Or is that idea completely infeasible?

 

[SeriousSam]

Such a person would probably rather earn millions being the best rider as opposed to take part in controlled long term scientific testing.

Also, if the can accurately predict someone's max performance based on some measurement, it would make the sport duller as well. Of course, eventually we'll be able to do that.