what type of carbon wheels to get

[Indurain]

I am wanting to buy a pair of OEM clincher carbon wheels but am unsure which ones to go for. Besides the different sizes their are 2 types I know of that I am looking at. One is full carbon and the other has the carbon molded onto an alloy rim.

Originally I was going to get full carbon (38mm front, 50mm back) as they weighed about 1350gms for the 2 wheels and I thought they would be fast on the flats as well as while climbing. But then I heard that it is harder to brake with full carbon (diff. brake pads?) and that your pads wear out quickly. Being 95kg at present and also considering myself a heavy user of the brakes (especially with downhill descending and tight corners, I'm a little nervous), I thought these may not suit me because of the braking issues. Is this true? Also if the rear wheel was spoked with a 2 cross over (24 to 28 spokes) would that be strong enough to hold my weight?

So I am thinking now, that perhaps I should get the type that mold onto the alloy rim (abt 1650gms for 48mm model - I am hoping). Solves the braking issue Am I safe in thinking that these are stronger than full carbon and will be faster on the flats because of the extra weight?

I currently have a pair of American Classic Victory's (also 1650gms) with about 24mm rim . Can I expect a noticeable improvement on the flats with the 48mm alloy/carbon rims? Lastly, what difference can I expect with the full carbon's vs the alloy/carbons while climbing given that there is about a 300gms difference?

Sorry abt the million questions, just torn between the 2.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

The wheels you have now sound fairly nice. I wouldn't bother spending the money on a new set unless they are damaged.

I definitely wouldn't spend the money for carbon rims unless you are racing. Even then, I don't know if it is worth it. When you watch a pro race on a flat terrain you will see many riders using those deep section carbon rims. Then again, there are probably just as many people riding regular rims. So I don't know how much they will really help. At the local club level it is definitely more about the rider than the equipment.

 

[RoadieBeast]

I would say that a set of deep carbon wheels would go faster than your Victory's, but only when you are going sufficiently fast, i.e over 35kmh.
If you are just racing D grade at club or something then you wont hardly notice a set of deeper wheels.

I race a set of Reynolds SDV66 clinchers myself, they are full carbon and weigh a bit over 1600gr so they are not super light. They are however very stiff and I do notice the aero benefit when I am racing hard, but if I just use them to train on, they feel pretty much the same as my Shimano RS20 wheels. As far as braking goes on the carbon braking surface, I find the Reynolds feel pretty similar to alloy wheels, and my pads have lasted 1000km of hard racing so far, I only weigh 74kg though, and I don't use brakes much...

Basically the faster you are, the more sense these wheels make, if you are like me and you are an A grade rider like me then you would definitely get a bit of an advantage with carbon wheels (its an expensive advantage though), If you are just doing fun rides with the aim of finishing with your friends then you may be wasting your money.

However if you have money to spare and you want the bling advantage that deep wheels give you then I wont stop you.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I am wanting to buy a pair of OEM clincher carbon wheels but am unsure which ones to go for. Besides the different sizes their are 2 types I know of that I am looking at. One is full carbon and the other has the carbon molded onto an alloy rim.

Originally I was going to get full carbon (38mm front, 50mm back) as they weighed about 1350gms for the 2 wheels and I thought they would be fast on the flats as well as while climbing. But then I heard that it is harder to brake with full carbon (diff. brake pads?) and that your pads wear out quickly. Being 95kg at present and also considering myself a heavy user of the brakes (especially with downhill descending and tight corners, I'm a little nervous), I thought these may not suit me because of the braking issues. Is this true? Also if the rear wheel was spoked with a 2 cross over (24 to 28 spokes) would that be strong enough to hold my weight?

So I am thinking now, that perhaps I should get the type that mold onto the alloy rim (abt 1650gms for 48mm model - I am hoping). Solves the braking issue Am I safe in thinking that these are stronger than full carbon and will be faster on the flats because of the extra weight?

I currently have a pair of American Classic Victory's (also 1650gms) with about 24mm rim . Can I expect a noticeable improvement on the flats with the 48mm alloy/carbon rims? Lastly, what difference can I expect with the full carbon's vs the alloy/carbons while climbing given that there is about a 300gms difference?

Sorry abt the million questions, just torn between the 2.

At your weight you're going to want the aluminum braking surface, and the highest spoke count the manufacturer will build for you. What mfg's are you considering by the way? Personal opinion is that carbon wheels aren't really much of an upgrade unless you're really into racing, or attempting to be fashionable by dressing up your bike with deep rims. Problem is that heavier riders are not going to get much longevity from a carbon set if you plan on using them as your everyday wheels.

 

[Indurain]

Thanks for your replies so far. I guess I want them both for the look plus to hopefully go faster on the flats. I have been steadily losing weight 18.5kg's in the last 3mths and expect to lose another 15 to 20 in the next 6mths to a year. I plan to race again next year (maybe this year), but probably in Masters C (40yr olds and up). Are the carbon/alloys much stronger and have a higher weight limit than the pure carbons (Plan to lace them up 24 to 28 spokes cross over).

The carbon wheels I plan to buy (probably from E-hong fu or Fly XI - factory outlets) won't be training wheels, but will take them on club rides (ranging from 40 to 100+ km's). I tended to attack a bit when I use to race, so perhaps they will come in handy. Currently only averaging by myself low 30's for relative flat rides around 50km's and about 40km'h for around 20km's (the same terrain) if I'm going for it. Will they help in a sprint (only get to the mid 50's). So I'm nothing special, but improving.

 

[Notso Swift]

What about Aluminium Aero wheels

Something like the Reynolds Solitude that I use is light and will handle the weight (I was 90kg and broke 2 spokes in 10,000 km, 80 now)

American Classic have a light alloy deep as well, can't remember what it is 420?

Both these are around 1500gr and 38mm deep

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Thanks for your replies so far. I guess I want them both for the look plus to hopefully go faster on the flats. I have been steadily losing weight 18.5kg's in the last 3mths and expect to lose another 15 to 20 in the next 6mths to a year. I plan to race again next year (maybe this year), but probably in Masters C (40yr olds and up). Are the carbon/alloys much stronger and have a higher weight limit than the pure carbons (Plan to lace them up 24 to 28 spokes cross over).

The carbon wheels I plan to buy (probably from E-hong fu or Fly XI - factory outlets) won't be training wheels, but will take them on club rides (ranging from 40 to 100+ km's). I tended to attack a bit when I use to race, so perhaps they will come in handy. Currently only averaging by myself low 30's for relative flat rides around 50km's and about 40km'h for around 20km's (the same terrain) if I'm going for it. Will they help in a sprint (only get to the mid 50's). So I'm nothing special, but improving.

The thing about carbon wheels is that you're pretty close to the threshold of the weight limit. I don't know anything about those Chinese companies, but I imagine the same .1 ton rule applies. I think the alloy rimmed ones would be more durable, structurally and braking performance wise, but since there the same weight as your Am Classics your not really going to feel any performance gain. All being said, Williams actually dumped the Zipp OEM carbon/aluminum for Carbotec all carbon because they said more durable. I just don't have any experience with the ones you're looking at. The all carbons you're considering are about a 300g difference, which you would probably notice that they would spin up quicker, but you'd be sacrificing weight for durability. You'd need to shave at the very least 300 to 400g to justify buying a wheel set purely based on a tangible performance upgrade.

Your steady weight loss is going to make much more difference in performance gain than any wheel set could. Since the alloy rimmed Carbon wheels aren't going to save you any weight on the bike, the only benefit is that the deeper carbon may look cooler. IMO, that wouldn't be enough reason to part with my money. Equipment won't make you faster in a sprint or quicker up a hill by any significant margin. Train hard, that's it.

 

[Indurain]

Thanks, you've all been very helpful.

 

[Indurain]

$300 42mm alloy + carbon wheels, Am I throwing my money away?

As I've just bought a new bike (minus wheels and pedals (CG1 from pedal force), my wife isn't keen on me spending too much more money.

So I am thinking about using my American Classic Victory's (1650gms) for more hilly courses (whole bike will weigh abt 6.8kg's) and perhaps purchase these 42mm clincher carbon/alloy OEM rims for flatter courses and potentially racing. What do you think?

The problem is, the rims weigh 620 grms each for a 42mm carbon/alloy rim. But at about $150 US for the pair (cheaper on ebay) I really can't complain.

I can get the hubs/skewers (about 400grms) for between $75 from either the same place or a slightly better pair from e-hongfu $130 and then just need to buy the spokes and build them myself (have had some experience).

So all up for about $300 US I can have a 42mm alloy/carbon wheel set that weighs about 1900gms. What do you think? Are there better alternatives that aren't much more expensive?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

$300 42mm alloy + carbon wheels, Am I throwing my money away?

Yes, you totally are. If you're that tight on cash that you cannot buy or build a proper carbon set which would actually give you somewhat of a performance advantage instead of just dressing up your bike with these boat anchors, because that's all they're are good for, leave this one alone. Save you're money and spend it on your wife, she'll be much happier with you.

 

[ihavenolimbs]

Yes, you totally are. If you're that tight on cash that you cannot buy or build a proper carbon set which would actually give you somewhat of a performance advantage instead of just dressing up your bike with these boat anchors, because that's all they're are good for, leave this one alone. Save you're money and spend it on your wife, she'll be much happier with you.

+1, RDV4ROUBAIX seems to know his stuff.

Indurain, I also agree that you should stick to alloy rims unless you get lighter and stop using the brakes while descending.

If you're 95 kg and hammering along at 40 km/h by yourself, you'll probably be putting out over 330 W (depending on position, road-quality, wind, ...). According to the link at the bottom, at 50 km/h, Zipp 808s, which have been designed using a wind-tunnel, and compared to OEM Shimano wheels, will save you 8 W for the front wheel, and probably only 4 W for the rear, due to the turbulent airflow. The savings at 40 km/h will only be half this (since power required to overcome air-resistance rises with the cube of velocity, because force rises with the square), so a measly 6 W in total @ 40 km/h. And these are best-case, wind-tunnel figures. On the road, maybe even less. And you're risking being dumped into a ditch by wind gusts with very deep wheels. (Well I am anyway, I am 6' and my mass is only 64 kg.)

Those cheap, $300, Chinese wheels have not been designed in a wind tunnel and could very well be slower (and are heavier) than OEM Shimano wheels, which actually aren't too bad, except for the cones & bearing races.

Saying that though, I bought myself some HED Stinger 4 wheels, mostly so I could have Vittoria race tyres glued to them (as these will save another 5+ W @ 40 km/h), and to pimp my ride. Very nice wheels but, except for accelerating from a standstill, feel just the same as any other smooth-rolling, true wheels with nice tyres.

Check out this site too:
http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html

 

[Indurain]

Thanks so much guys, you helped me dodge a bullet. I really respect RDV4ROUBAIX wisdom in these things, you've been around a long time and definately know what you're talking about. I think I will save some more money and get something nicer (and lighter). Thanks for the tips. Will look at your recommended sites. So for about 700 to 800 what would be the way to go for a set of Aero wheels (not pure carbon).

 

[richwagmn]

Thanks so much guys, you helped me dodge a bullet. I really respect RDV4ROUBAIX wisdom in these things, you've been around a long time and definately know what you're talking about. I think I will save some more money and get something nicer (and lighter). Thanks for the tips. Will look at your recommended sites. So for about 700 to 800 what would be the way to go for a set of Aero wheels (not pure carbon).

I'm not so sure the lightness is that important. I came across some tests contrasting lightness vs aerodynamics in wheels. Of the two, aero had the greater benefit. Weight, despite what we might want to believe was neglible.

You might want to consider some of the new wider rims like the Hed C2s. You can run a lower pressure, get a more comfortable ride and have lower rolling resistance. The ZIPP 101s sound interesting but they seem too pricey for me. DT makes some nice stuff also.

Maybe, just upgrade to a higher quality set if you're really interested. Unless you're a high end racer, any performance benefit is going to be hard to notice.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Thanks so much guys, you helped me dodge a bullet. I really respect RDV4ROUBAIX wisdom in these things, you've been around a long time and definately know what you're talking about. I think I will save some more money and get something nicer (and lighter). Thanks for the tips. Will look at your recommended sites. So for about 700 to 800 what would be the way to go for a set of Aero wheels (not pure carbon).

Thanks for the kind words! I've been thinking about what kind of wheels would suit you best, and I think I found a couple solutions that are pretty cost effective. Since you were set on building your own wheels, I'd like to keep you going down that road because you'll always save money by DIY.

richwagmn actually raises a good point with those HED's, but I won't recommend to buy them if you know how to build your own, so bare with me, I'll explain what's going on here. The reason for the wider C2 rim was to widen the contact patch of a standard issue 23mm wide tire for better handling, first and foremost. Running lower pressures was secondary to this design, but important nonetheless. Since the new profile holds more air, it takes less of it to reach an optimal pressure, which richwagmn alluded to. Usual 23mm wide tires on a typical 19 or 20mm wide rim are best at 100-120 psi depending on your weight, with the wider rim and slightly higher tire volume you can reach optimal pressures around 80-90psi.

Here's the catch; You can build up your own version of the HED C2 by using the new Velocity A23 rim (23mm wide) with your own hubs and save about 300 bucks or more depending on the cost of your hub. But these wheels are pretty shallow, and you'd just end up with a slightly lighter and better handling version of your Am Classics. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

For a more aerodynamic solution without using carbon anywhere I turned to my old employer QBP, who renamed the wheel department to Handspun, a funny misnomer, they actually use a robot to build the majority of their wheels. QBP lifer Chad Stone, who's built like a fireman, built up a set of H Plus Son SL42 rims to Dura Ace Hubs which actually could be a viable option for you. His Version is 24h rear and 18h front, and for some reason on the H Plus Son website they only have 24, 28, 32, and 36h available, no 18h. Chad's was custom drilled, so you could try and have them make you one like that, no use really for anything more than 20h in the front for that deep of an all alloy rim. And these massive alloy rims could actually build up to about 100g less than those cheap carbon wheels you wanted to build.

Back to the carbon dilemma. If I were in your shoes, I'd stick with what I got unless I could afford a decent carbon set, tubulars instead of clinchers also because they're much lighter. Club level racers cringe at the very mention of tubulars, but facts are facts, it's the ultimate race set up, and it's a race-only wheel so it's not like you're using them everyday. The constant accelerating out of corners and over the top of rollers or hills during a race the lighter weight tubular wheels work best simply because of less rotational weight. If you decide to go carbon expect to pay about a grand for anything decent like Williams, or a bit more if you use a Zipp or Edge rim in your own build. Anything less are just toys. Be careful, no matter the one or two people that swear by these cheaper carbon sets, there's a reason why nobody worth mentioning is racing them, and it's not all because of money. The cheaper builders make just as many egregious performance claims as the big brands and are using lesser quality parts.

 

[Indurain]

Thanks or the detailed reply. I'm on the H Plus Son site now and am almost ready to press buy for the SL42's. They look great. Could you please suggest a cheap but nice hub to go with these. Also what spokes would you recommend for a 24, 28 build (I am 95kg's)

But there is one thing I'm not quite understanding, but trust your advice all the same.

What is it about the OEM factory direct Carbons that make them a poor choice (so that noone worth mentioning is racing on them). In my naive understanding, providing 2 carbon rims are the same weight and height, they will perform the same?? The only thing I can think of is the durability will be different.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Thanks or the detailed reply. I'm on the H Plus Son site now and am almost ready to press buy for the SL42's. They look great. Could you please suggest a cheap but nice hub to go with these. Also what spokes would you recommend for a 24, 28 build (I am 95kg's)

But there is one thing I'm not quite understanding, but trust your advice all the same.

What is it about the OEM factory direct Carbons that make them a poor choice (so that noone worth mentioning is racing on them). In my naive understanding, providing 2 carbon rims are the same weight and height, they will perform the same?? The only thing I can think of is the durability will be different.

Thanks again for all your help.

Those H+Sons are going to be more durable in the long run for sure, granted that you build them up right. Cheap carbon just doesn't have the cost to performance ratio that you get from companies that invest in that aspect of the game. When asking about performance, that's all up to you my friend. It's not the arrow, it's the Indian.

As far as the hubs go, you'll have to get some from your source, because normally the average consumer is getting DT, White Ind., King, Alchemy, Tune, and other more expensive ones for custom builds. The Novatec hubs you were looking at would work if you can figure out that lacing pattern, otherwise they also make a pretty wide range of hole counts for OEM builders. Personally, I'd use some with regular flanges. DT Competition, or Sapim Race double butted 14/15ga spokes, front radial, rear radial NDS, 2x DS.

 

[Indurain]

After reading all, I've decided to go with the H Plus Son SL42's. Will try and get them around 1850gms in weight for the complete build (might be a challenge). I think your advice is the way to go as a carbon/alloy weighs just as much, and at this stage I don't have good enough descending & cornering skills to go with full carbon.

I think my American Classics will need to become my race wheels for the hillier courses and these aero's mainly training and may use them for racing on less hilly courses. Like you said, hopefully my performance will make up the difference between someone on carbon tubulars and myself. Currently riding on an old set of mavic open pro's/105 hubs and doing alright.

Thanks again for all your help. You guys saved me making a bad decision. This site is awesome.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Alright Indurain, seems like you were pretty hellbent on getting into an aero set, let us know how they turn out. Just don't tell your wife it was me that convinced you to get new wheels.

 

[Indurain]

Advice on spokes, guage and lacing of my new wheels

Hi due to some good advice here, I have purchased some 42mm H+Son SL42 Alloy Rims (700c x 42mm). They weight about 620grms each. I bought some of the lighter weight novatec hubs with Alum. axles (327gms per pair). I plan to build the wheels using radial lacing on the front hub and radial NDS side and 2x on the right for the rear hub.

The front hub takes a 15 guage spoke (1.8mm) due to the spoke eyelet being 2.3mm and the rear 14 guage (2mm) with a 2.6mm spoke eyelet.

A few questions I have, can I use 15 guage in the rear instead of 14? and if so how much weaker would it be than the 14guage (both double butted (1.8, 1.6, 1.8 dt comps or 1.8, 1.5, 1.8 revol.). I am 95kg's but losing weight. Will my lacing pattern at the back Radial/2x be strong enough for me with 15guage/alum. nipples considering I am using a deep alloy rim?

I am thinking about going with Pillar spokes instead of DT, wheelsmith, etc as I can get them cheaper at the moment through the place I bought the hubs from. Anyone had any experience with them and could comment on their quality? They weigh about the same as the DT's.

I am also considering perhaps going aerospokes (aerolite double butted), are these much weaker than the dt comps/revol. and do they offer noticeabley better performance for the extra money you pay.

Lastly, what is the purpose of triple butted, considering they are heavier than double butted, and probably not much stronger? Sorry for the million q's, just need to order my spokes and want to do it right. Thanks in advance

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Indurain, please don't start a new thread for every single question you have. It's becoming redundant.

Use DT Comps, Revolutions are too wimpy for your weight, triple butted are for heavy duty apps like touring or tandems. If you go with Pillar use the PDB 1415, which is the DT Comp equivalent. Use aluminum nipples with some decent thread locking compound on the threads when you build them, to keep it simple use Spoke Prep by Wheelsmith, brass has a tendency to spin loose with radial patterns, especially for beginner wheel builders. Aero spokes won't make you faster, only your money leaving your wallet will be the only fast thing.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I have a solution for your million question affliction.

As you delve into this wheel building adventure, take some time and go to Sheldon Brown's web site and reference his wheel building page. It's the most simply written and comprehensive piece on this topic that I've recommended to just about every single aspiring wheel builder I've come across. I can tell the future, some call me a future teller, and I know many of your future questions will be answered on that single page. Here it is:

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Good luck!

 

[Indurain]

Sorry for the new threads. It's just that I want people to answer my question and if I put it in here, people may not go in it and answer it. But thanks for answering it yourself and for the link. I am only confident building 2x and 3x wheels. So I was going to look somthing up for radials.

What is the advantage of going radial vs x2? If it's on that page, don't worry about answering it. I will read it.

Thanks again. I'll go dt revolution on the front (14g) and dt comp on the rear. Not sure if I will go radial/x2 on the back or straight x2. Will post a pic and weight of the wheels when finished.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Sorry for the new threads. It's just that I want people to answer my question and if I put it in here, people may not go in it and answer it. But thanks for answering it yourself and for the link. I am only confident building 2x and 3x wheels. So I was going to look somthing up for radials.

What is the advantage of going radial vs x2? If it's on that page, don't worry about answering it. I will read it.

Thanks again. I'll go dt revolution on the front (14g) and dt comp on the rear. Not sure if I will go radial/x2 on the back or straight x2. Will post a pic and weight of the wheels when finished.

I'm the only wheel builder that's here on a daily basis, Bustedknuckle would be another great adviser, but he's the owner of a busy bike shop, my computer sits next to my truing stand so I see what's going on here throughout the day. You could have also posed all these questions in the Wheelbuilders thread, precisely why I created it. You can see that I've just recently helped out rich00 with a wheel build.

About your wheel set. If you only feel comfortable doing crossed patterns, stick to that, and use brass nipples then. Radial on the front doesn't really matter, you basically save a few grams with shorter spokes and alu nips, radial in the rear is used to equalize tension a bit, but like I said, stick with what you know, and the advantage of a half radial rear is very minimal. DO NOT use Revolutions on your front wheel!!! Small gauge spokes and low spoke counts at high tension with someone your size that plans to race them is a recipe for disaster. Stick to DT comps at 2x all around with brass nips.

 

[Indurain]

Thanks for the advice. Will read wheelbuilder thread too. I have decided to venture out and go with the radial build on front and radial NDS, x2 in the rear. Should be fun researching and building the wheels up. Hopefully my experience with x2, x3 will carry me through. I will be using Pillar 14/15 double butted with alum nipples thoughout (thanks for helping me dodge another bullet).

Where I'm going x2 on the back, should I be using brass nipples? I'd prefer to stick with Alum nipples if this is possible as my final build is about 1885gms already, which isn't too bad for the deep rims that I have.

Appreciate all your expert advice, saved me heaps of heartache.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Yes, you could use brass on the crossed DS spokes, it wouldn't be much of a weight penalty anyway. You may have read on the Sheldon Brown website that aluminum nips on aluminum rims with no eyelets is a no-no. Usually yes, but if you lube the nipple seats before going up to tension with a waxy lube like Boeshield T-9 or Finish Line Krytech you shouldn't get that fusion, or "chemical welding" that can happen with two of the same alloys at high stress areas.