Where did Lance get the money to pay the money?

[Ninety5rpm]

If exclusive access to expensive doping expertise and expensive doping practices is what makes Lance's achievements unfair, where did he get the money to pay for this stuff. Since Ullrich and Pantani were already tdf winners and presumably willing dopers prior to '99, presumably they had the financial means to exploit the same advantages that Armstrong did. Were they not smart enough?

Where did Lance earn this unfair amount of money allowing him access that his rivals could not afford, thus making his achievements unfair (if that's the argument)?

 

[Benotti69]

If exclusive access to expensive doping expertise and expensive doping practices is what makes Lance's achievements unfair, where did he get the money to pay for this stuff. Since Ullrich and Pantani were already tdf winners and presumably willing dopers prior to '99, presumably they had the financial means to exploit the same advantages that Armstrong did. Were they not smart enough?

Where did Lance earn this unfair amount of money allowing him access that his rivals could not afford, thus making his achievements unfair (if that's the argument)?

How much was a doping program in 1999? Do you know? It is reported that Ferrari wanted 15% of a rider's salary. If you have control of the purse strings of the team well surely you can spend it in any way you see fit. Obviously they are not going to put PEDs in the account ledgers but i am sure Ferrari had a system for receiving funds that easily accommodated any difficulties.

I imagine some stuff will come out in the investigation by the feds. But who can be sure of the exact costs of PEDs.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

If exclusive access to expensive doping expertise and expensive doping practices is what makes Lance's achievements unfair, where did he get the money to pay for this stuff. Since Ullrich and Pantani were already tdf winners and presumably willing dopers prior to '99, presumably they had the financial means to exploit the same advantages that Armstrong did. Were they not smart enough?

Where did Lance earn this unfair amount of money allowing him access that his rivals could not afford, thus making his achievements unfair (if that's the argument)?

Lance had plenty of money from his racing career previous to the cancer.

Lance had plenty of very wealthy friends. It only takes one win to escalate the access to larger, more easily obtained funds.

Let's just use the amount of $100k USD as the cost of a 1999 doping program. In training, Lance would have been able to see the results in power and speed, enough to estimate his chances for success. Is that $100k too much to spend as a downpayment on winning the Tour?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If exclusive access to expensive doping expertise and expensive doping practices is what makes Lance's achievements unfair, where did he get the money to pay for this stuff. Since Ullrich and Pantani were already tdf winners and presumably willing dopers prior to '99, presumably they had the financial means to exploit the same advantages that Armstrong did. Were they not smart enough?

Where did Lance earn this unfair amount of money allowing him access that his rivals could not afford, thus making his achievements unfair (if that's the argument)?

Before Lance had signed with Cofidis and before he had cancer he was driving around in a Porsche and owned a new house on the shores of Lake Austin which was on sale in 2005 for $3.5 million.

And Dr.Ferrari was reportedly receiving a percentage cut of riders salary.

 

[jimmypop]

Before Lance had signed with Cofidis and before he had cancer he was driving around in a Porsche and owned a new house on the shores of Lake Austin which was on sale in 2005 for $3.5 million.

And Dr.Ferrari was reportedly receiving a percentage cut of riders salary.

I read the linked article. It's really sad how many lives will affected when the fraud is fully realized.

 

[hrotha]

I would assume Armstrong made most of his money through sponsor deals and the like, just like every other top athlete.

 

[kurtinsc]

Lance had plenty of money from his racing career previous to the cancer.

Lance had plenty of very wealthy friends. It only takes one win to escalate the access to larger, more easily obtained funds.

Let's just use the amount of $100k USD as the cost of a 1999 doping program. In training, Lance would have been able to see the results in power and speed, enough to estimate his chances for success. Is that $100k too much to spend as a downpayment on winning the Tour?

Lance was also likely doping prior to cancer as well.

 

[Big GMaC]

Lance was also likely doping prior to cancer as well.

Well it gave (or at least exacerbated) his cancer

 

[GPlataniotis]

Well it gave (or at least exacerbated) his cancer

Are you a doctor? Is there empirical evidence to support this claim of yours? The reason I ask is a am a cancer survivor, and during my chemotherapy and radiation treatments I blood doped (2 bone marrow stem cell transplants) and took steroids (Prednizone) for medical purposes.

If your claim is true and it indeed "exacerbated his cancer", wouldn't the very drugs that supposedly helped him with his recovery from cancer cause it all over again?

 

[kurtinsc]

Are you a doctor? Is there empirical evidence to support this claim of yours? The reason I ask is a am a cancer survivor, and during my chemotherapy and radiation treatments I blood doped (2 bone marrow stem cell transplants) and took steroids (Prednizone) for medical purposes.

If your claim is true and it indeed "exacerbated his cancer", wouldn't the very drugs that supposedly helped him with his recovery from cancer cause it all over again?

Not to belittle your situation... but of course that's possible.

I'm not aware of connections between his doping practices and getting testicular cancer. I'm just saying that just because something can be used as a treatment for a disease... doesn't mean it can't cause the same problem. You wear glasses to correct your eyesight... but if you wear glasses with perfect vision... it can damage your eyesight. Shoving a scalpel in your knee would probably damage it... and it might be fixed by surgery... using a scalpel. And of course you use radiation to cure cancer... but radiation causes cancer.

The cause and the cure often can be the same thing.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Lance had plenty of money from his racing career previous to the cancer.

Lance had plenty of very wealthy friends. It only takes one win to escalate the access to larger, more easily obtained funds.

Let's just use the amount of $100k USD as the cost of a 1999 doping program. In training, Lance would have been able to see the results in power and speed, enough to estimate his chances for success. Is that $100k too much to spend as a downpayment on winning the Tour?

Okay, but after his cancer he was not exactly considered a winning bet. That's hardly starting from a position of advantage relative to many of his competitors.

I really think the key difference is what he learned about doping and himself while overcoming cancer. If so, is that really unfair?

 

[Muzzin]

1993 contract with Motorola: $642,000
1996 contract with Cofidis: $600,000

 

[JimmyHoffa]

"Other sources include Stephen Swart, who the authors say took money to help Armstrong win the 1993 US Triple Crown, a $1,000,000 payday to any rider who won the 3 biggest US races"

http://www.tdfblog.com/2004/06/abt_on_armstron.html

 

[Ninety5rpm]

1993 contract with Motorola: $642,000
1996 contract with Cofidis: $600,000

Why was he getting such good contracts when others were not?

 

[kurtinsc]

1993 contract with Motorola: $642,000
1996 contract with Cofidis: $600,000

Was that 1993 contract signed AFTER the 1993 season? It would make sense for a guy who just won the US nationals and world championships and won a TDF stage. It would seem a little high based on his 1991 and 1992 results.

 

[GPlataniotis]

Not to belittle your situation... but of course that's possible.

I'm not aware of connections between his doping practices and getting testicular cancer. I'm just saying that just because something can be used as a treatment for a disease... doesn't mean it can't cause the same problem. You wear glasses to correct your eyesight... but if you wear glasses with perfect vision... it can damage your eyesight. Shoving a scalpel in your knee would probably damage it... and it might be fixed by surgery... using a scalpel. And of course you use radiation to cure cancer... but radiation causes cancer.

The cause and the cure often can be the same thing.

Thanks kurtinsc... I hadn't quite looked at it from that perspective. Makes sense and I appreciate your response. Given some of the commentary on CN forums, I was expecting the worst from people!

 

[redtreviso]

A little off topic but why would Trek jump in in 1999 to sponsor a team built around TDF non contender Lance when they had never tried to supply a tour team? They sure hit a gold mine or did they know the tdf was about to get to know a pharma superman? or could it have been a condition of their involvement? (we need 3 times as many bikes and equiment for you know, you know)

 

[Ninety5rpm]

A little off topic but why would Trek jump in in 1999 to sponsor a team built around TDF non contender Lance when they had never tried to supply a tour team? They sure hit a gold mine or did they know the tdf was about to get to know a pharma superman? or could it have been a condition of their involvement? (we need 3 times as many bikes and equiment for you know, you know)

Being the bike sponsor for any team in the Tour is a coup, and it makes sense for an American bike company to sponsor an American team. But they could not have dreamed at how well this would go for them, even if they were injecting the drugs themselves.

I'm not sure, but I thought I read that the first year(s) they were using custom made bikes and slapping the Trek label on them.

 

[Muzzin]

Was that 1993 contract signed AFTER the 1993 season? It would make sense for a guy who just won the US nationals and world championships and won a TDF stage. It would seem a little high based on his 1991 and 1992 results.

Good call... signed the contract at the end of the 1993 season.

Cofidis was at the end of the 1996 season

 

[Oldman]

Okay, but after his cancer he was not exactly considered a winning bet. That's hardly starting from a position of advantage relative to many of his competitors.

I really think the key difference is what he learned about doping and himself while overcoming cancer. If so, is that really unfair?

Applying his physiological knowledge is totally fair. Applying the knowledge of blood manipulation, steriod use and other means he gained through his recovery doesn't give him the right to continue those means. That's like saying a person surviving a gunshot wound has the right to shoot people.

 

[Big GMaC]

Are you a doctor? Is there empirical evidence to support this claim of yours? The reason I ask is a am a cancer survivor, and during my chemotherapy and radiation treatments I blood doped (2 bone marrow stem cell transplants) and took steroids (Prednizone) for medical purposes.

If your claim is true and it indeed "exacerbated his cancer", wouldn't the very drugs that supposedly helped him with his recovery from cancer cause it all over again?

The reason I said it is because the presence of a testicular tumour should have elevated certain indicators that would have registered on anti-doping tests, but didn't.

Indicating use of masking agents.

The use of steroids and blood transfusions (just like my mother had, so don't play the 'cancer card') during recovery happens in controlled environments and after much research, not just a load of jocks mainlining 'roids

 

[Oldman]

The reason I said it is because the presence of a testicular tumour should have elevated certain indicators that would have registered on anti-doping tests, but didn't.

Indicating use of masking agents.

The use of steroids and blood transfusions (just like my mother had, so don't play the 'cancer card') during recovery happens in controlled environments and after much research, not just a load of jocks mainlining 'roids

And like my Dad is taking now. The chemo depletes resources to the point he cannot recover without help. The intended use of those drugs are for your Mother and my Dad. Not so someone can train 7 hours a day, lift weights, take whatever is in the program kit and still be able to do it again. Getting tired and requiring recovery is as much a part of this sport as the wheels we ride. I'm no purist but I think we need to consider that genetic limits are real limits. If you can't overcome them without a justification to use an "aid" you should resign yourself to that fate and live. Period.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Applying his physiological knowledge is totally fair. Applying the knowledge of blood manipulation, steriod use and other means he gained through his recovery doesn't give him the right to continue those means. That's like saying a person surviving a gunshot wound has the right to shoot people.

I don't follow the comparison.
He happened to stumble upon methods due to his cancer treatment.
But there was nothing preventing his competitors from obtaining this knowledge through other means.

He was unlucky to get cancer, and then he was lucky to learn the methods. Sounds like making lemonade out of lemons to me.

 

[whocares]

If exclusive access to expensive doping expertise and expensive doping practices is what makes Lance's achievements unfair, where did he get the money to pay for this stuff. Since Ullrich and Pantani were already tdf winners and presumably willing dopers prior to '99, presumably they had the financial means to exploit the same advantages that Armstrong did. Were they not smart enough?

Where did Lance earn this unfair amount of money allowing him access that his rivals could not afford, thus making his achievements unfair (if that's the argument)?

According to FL, wasn't the program funded by selling team bikes?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

According to FL, wasn't the program funded by selling team bikes?

Kindof sortof.

The team bikes would have gone to paying the team wide doping programme -which in teams like Festina and (IIRC) Once came out of the prize money pool at the end of the season.

To pay for the services of Dr. Ferrari would probably have been the responsibility of the individual riders involved with the good Doctor and not part of the team programme.