- Mar 19, 2009
Doping effectiveness discussion/poll.
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Are you referring to the "doping makes no difference language?" That ruled out choice one for me even if I thought he might be in the top 10.mr.biggles said:This is an effective demonstration of why it's important to look at how polling questions are asked and not just at the "results".
Nick C. said:Are you referring to the "doping makes no difference language?" That ruled out choice one for me even if I thought he might be in the top 10.
I should have included 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, etc. If I could open it again I would. I just didnt want to have 10 different options.mr.biggles said:That was exactly what I was referring to. Also, not a lot of choices if you happened to think he'd do worse than he did but still have a good overall placing.
Hi Frenchguy! I like this type of discussion. Many riders using CERA were actually blood doping with their own blood (transfusions.) Dont know if you know that. They can raise their hematocrits to high 50s and hemodilute with regular saline.ThisFrenchGuy said:Is it even possible to say?
Is there any real model to calculate what is the average gain of PEDs?
Even if we had this, like "8% = CERA gain" (which is already a very simplistic way of saying it) and that we tried to apply it to his total time, would it make sense? There's many factors in a race. Even if Di Luca numerous attacks were made possible through doping, he could have stuck in the peloton at the back as a rider can do when feeling weak.
My understanding is that measuring the performance of an athlete precisely (VO2 etc...) necessits quite some material and expertise.
And while we may know what PEDs do, random-guessing their effects for an individual rider is... random. He did test positive for CERA, but what do we know about his program? How much did he took and when? What if he also took other products?
There could be answers to this, I am not an expert. But I feel only the riders themselves (and their doping doctor, if they have one in charge of their training and collecting data) have an idea of much they were enhanced.
Good post BB.BigBoat said:Hi Frenchguy! I like this type of discussion. Many riders using CERA were actually blood doping with their own blood (transfusions.) Dont know if you know that. They can raise their hematocrits to high 50s and hemodilute with regular saline.
Some guys only see a 12% sustainable power increase with blood doping. Some riders see as much as a 30% increase with blood doping. Not everybody "responds" the same way! But 12% more power would make all out 10 minute power become all out 50-60 minute power... A clean talented rider would be dropped within 15 minutes of a good steep climb. Over the course of a Grand Tour with 5,500 meters of climbing in single stages its doubtful most clean riders would finish inside the elimination. For example: in 1990 Greg Lemond won the Tour de France. In 1992 he DNF'd the Tour de France because he finished outside the elimination cut on the 259 km stage 13 to Sestriere. I believe this is because the pace was simply to high for him without EPO. But thats just my opinion. I picked 100 places-DNF. I think there are many riders blood doping still. Astorlaza was doing it just to try and win a stage. If a rider like him is doing it there must be like 50 guys doing it! Can you imagine 50 talented fit guys getting a 12%+ increase in power? The pace in the mountains would be crazy.