Who are the 'smartest' riders

[King Of Molehill]

I'm not a fan of hypothetical questions but I'm going to ask one anyway. If race radios were banned AND team directors were forced to watch from the finish line who of today's riders have the best tactical sense?

Example: If at the same point in Paris Roubaix this year Fabian Cancellara found himself up front while Tom Boonen was taking a break to snack and relax a bit would Fabian have had the smarts to look around and make the decision to go rather than simply doing what he was told over the radio? I'm not sure he would have. He may still have won but I wonder if another rider less strong but more tactically minded could have given the above hypothetical situation.

 

[Ibanez]

Di Luca raced last years giro mainly without a radio which a lot of people were impressed with.

 

[theswordsman]

I'll include savvy from experience and say Jens!

 

[Moondance]

Johnny Hoogerland

In all seriousness though, I don't think this possible to measure.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

It's tough to say. Really depends on the parcours, and style of race (classic, Stage race, or GT). I think Fabian is a very smart rider with great tactical awareness in the Classic. You know who I think has zero tactical awareness...Contador. Not saying he needs the hog to guide him through a race course, but without somebody yelling in his ear, he would get lost.

I also think Big George is a smart rider, but his age prevents him from taking full advantage of that at this point in his career.

 

[Ibanez]

It's tough to say. Really depends on the parcours, and style of race (classic, Stage race, or GT). I think Fabian is a very smart rider with great tactical awareness in the Classic. You know who I think has zero tactical awareness...Contador. Not saying he needs the hog to guide him through a race course, but without somebody yelling in his ear, he would get lost.

I also think Big George is a smart rider, but his age prevents him from taking full advantage of that at this point in his career.

Why do you think Contador has poor tactical awareness? He was far from the only GC contender to miss the split in the Tour last year.

He had a bad day in Paris Nice last year.

His attack which dropped Kloden in the tour last year when Klodi could have possibly held on for a top 3 was perhaps as much of a **** you to the rest of the team then anything else. Did seem foolish at the time though.

 

[lancaster]

freire always seems to be in the right place,
or people who like to go on long breaks jens, moncoutie, vino

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Though not a big fan, I think Jalabert was a keen tactician. Also, and this won't be popular, Landis showed strength in this area. His 06 run (California, Georgia, Paris-Nice, TdF) showed this.

Of the sprinters, Friere has a strong mind, IMHO.

 

[Publicus]

It's tough to say. Really depends on the parcours, and style of race (classic, Stage race, or GT). I think Fabian is a very smart rider with great tactical awareness in the Classic. You know who I think has zero tactical awareness...Contador. Not saying he needs the hog to guide him through a race course, but without somebody yelling in his ear, he would get lost.

I also think Big George is a smart rider, but his age prevents him from taking full advantage of that at this point in his career.

On what basis are you making this comment?

 

[hfer07]

You know who I think has zero tactical awareness...Contador. Not saying he needs the hog to guide him through a race course, but without somebody yelling in his ear, he would get lost.

For someone like AC who "refused,rebelled, & rode against his DC orders/advise (as media advertised) he did really good & won nevertheless the Tour!!!

But on the topic, I like guys like Gilbert, Cancellara, Ivanov, Posatto, pretty much all the French riders & in general those who dare to attack!!! those who hide behind another's wheel are called savvies, but are just wheel suckers simply unable to win by their own strength...

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

Why do you think Contador has poor tactical awareness? He was far from the only GC contender to miss the split in the Tour last year.

He had a bad day in Paris Nice last year.

His attack which dropped Kloden in the tour last year when Klodi could have possibly held on for a top 3 was perhaps as much of a **** you to the rest of the team then anything else. Did seem foolish at the time though.

All the things you mentioned and Paris-Nice this year. When he dropped to like 5 back in that group, Valverde could have hammered away from him. By the time Contador got out of the group, Valverde would have been 15 seconds up the road. Fortunately, for him Valverde missed it...I guess we could put him in the tactical crap house as well then.

Also, it's the way Contador rides. All he does is attack in the climbs, and doesn't make many decisions. If he didn't have a director telling him when to attack, he wouldn't be as successful. Look at Fleche, he went too early and Cadel marked him all the way. Not saying Contador won't develop this in the future, but right now he is a tactical bonehead. EDIT: Maybe he was told when to attack in Fleche, in which case I wouldn't be that encouraged with that director.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

For someone like AC who "refused,rebelled, & rode against his DC orders/advise (as media advertised) he did really good & won nevertheless the Tour!!!

I think the only time he went against orders was Arcalis.

 

[Publicus]

All the things you mentioned and Paris-Nice this year. When he dropped to like 5 back in that group, Valverde could have hammered away from him. By the time Contador got out of the group, Valverde would have been 15 seconds up the road. Fortunately, for him Valverde missed it...I guess we could put him in the tactical crap house as well then.

Also, it's the way Contador rides. All he does is attack in the climbs, and doesn't make many decisions. If he didn't have a director telling him when to attack, he wouldn't be as successful. Look at Fleche, he went too early and Cadel marked him all the way. Not saying Contador won't develop this in the future, but right now he is a tactical bonehead.

How do you conclude that Martinelli or Gallopin or whoever tells him when to attack on a climb? And Fleche is as much about experience riding the final climb in an actual race (versus simple recon) than anything else.

Seems to me his attacks are all based on when HE decides to go. Not Bruyneel. Not Martinelli. Him. His attack on Arcalis was tactically brilliant. Same with Verbier. And just as critical as you are about Paris-Nice, I would say that save him being too far down at one stage of the final climb, he handled the stage very well, picking up sprint bonuses and setting a torrid pace over the final part of the climb to ensure that Lulu and Valverde couldn't double team him. Or his decision to pull his team off the front in one of the prior stages to force Caisse and others to pursue.

I'm not going to speak on the wind issue at Stage 4, since there are good indications that Armstrong's brilliant tactical move comes down to a tipoff from Hincapie.

 

[python]

the op i think implied the smartest rider to him was the one who can think for himself w/o the ds instructions. but it looks like some people are answering their own definition of 'the smartest'. then, i'll take the liberty too...

thinking on the pedals the best of all time was hinault.

the smartest 'all-rounder' is armstrong (i mean "using all weapons to win guy)

the smartest tactician imo is vino who frequently failed,tbs

but when he succeeded to foil sprinters (the sprint on Champs-Élysées) or his attacks on down hills or into the wind...it was epic. few expected it and it made history.

 

[BikeCentric]

All the things you mentioned and Paris-Nice this year. When he dropped to like 5 back in that group, Valverde could have hammered away from him. By the time Contador got out of the group, Valverde would have been 15 seconds up the road. Fortunately, for him Valverde missed it...I guess we could put him in the tactical crap house as well then.

Also, it's the way Contador rides. All he does is attack in the climbs, and doesn't make many decisions. If he didn't have a director telling him when to attack, he wouldn't be as successful. Look at Fleche, he went too early and Cadel marked him all the way. Not saying Contador won't develop this in the future, but right now he is a tactical bonehead. EDIT: Maybe he was told when to attack in Fleche, in which case I wouldn't be that encouraged with that director.

LOL. Another one for the ignore list...

I'm sorry, but trying to claim that the currently best rider in the world by a country mile has no tactical knowledge just makes no sense. By that logic every other rider in the peloton that Contador often beats must be REALLY stupid.

 

[luckyboy]

Also, and this won't be popular, Landis showed strength in this area. His 06 run (California, Georgia, Paris-Nice, TdF) showed this.

Heh, was just thinking about Landis whilst reading this thread. I think his smartness came to the fore in the court cases and CAS hearings tbh

 

[BikeCentric]

I'm going with Cancellara for smartest current rider. He conserves his energy well untill he's ready to go, times his attacks perfectly, and once he does attack he commits fully to his move and often sticks it as we saw in de Ronde and P-R.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

How do you conclude that Martinelli or Gallopin or whoever tells him when to attack on a climb? And Fleche is as much about experience riding the final climb in an actual race (versus simple recon) than anything else.

Seems to me his attacks are all based on when HE decides to go. Not Bruyneel. Not Martinelli. Him. His attack on Arcalis was tactically brilliant. Same with Verbier. And just as critical as you are about Paris-Nice, I would say that save him being too far down at one stage of the final climb, he handled the stage very well, picking up sprint bonuses and setting a torrid pace over the final part of the climb to ensure that Lulu and Valverde couldn't double team him. Or his decision to pull his team off the front in one of the prior stages to force Caisse and others to pursue.

I'm not going to speak on the wind issue at Stage 4, since there are good indications that Armstrong's brilliant tactical move comes down to a tipoff from Hincapie.

Arcalis was a smart move, but Verbier wasn't really all that out of the ordinary, so I wouldn't say it was tactically brilliant. Regarding Paris-Nice this year, those time bonuses wouldn't have mattered a bit, if Valverde or Lulu noticed how far back he was, they could have tag teamed to a 15 second lead (same way Cancellara destroyed Boonen) easily. Didn't he beat Valverde by 11 seconds?

And about stage 4, Hincappie tip or not, rule number 1 of contending a bike race is stay near the front, but not on the front. That was the first thing I was taught. Contador fell way too far back.

 

[Publicus]

I think it is impossible to know who is the smartest at this point, since they all race with radios. We don't know what part is the work of the DS and what is the work of the rider.

I'd be interested to see the experiment really unfold at a one day and then at a small stage race. Just to see who does have the tactical knowledge, but as I said, it's impossible to tell at this point (at least amongst current riders). I would have said Spartacus, but with Riis admitting that he told him when to attack at Paris-Roubaix, it took a little luster off the move IMO.

 

[hfer07]

Also, it's the way Contador rides. All he does is attack in the climbs, and doesn't make many decisions. If he didn't have a director telling him when to attack, he wouldn't be as successful.

then you're contradicting yourself & what this threat is all about:
the fact that AC did rebel against his DC advice tells me he definitely has a brain of his own, has the balls to go for the kill and ride by his own feelings...
those attributes tells me that he indeed is smart
the Feche wallonne opinion? well-again- for someone like AC being disregard as a "classic rider" to have the courage & the instincts to go for the victory-even an unsuccessful attemp- is simply enough to recognize he is smart & he knows himself how to read a race. Bernard Hinault, Sean kelly, Stephen Roche & pretty much all the 80's school did have those qualities & they failed many times, but along the intents, they got great victories too.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

LOL. Another one for the ignore list...

I'm sorry, but trying to claim that the currently best rider in the world by a country mile has no tactical knowledge just makes no sense. By that logic every other rider in the peloton that Contador often beats must be REALLY stupid.

He's the best rider because he's by far the strongest climber, other than that he's showed me nothing in the way of tactical knowledge. I would love to see him race more classics (where tactics truly matter), not just attacking on a climb and riding solo all the way up.

Glad to be on your ignore list.

 

[python]

LOL. Another one for the ignore list...

i think this is your choice but i's too hasty. threimmaculate has placed plenty of thoughtful posts. the problem here is that he, like so many american fans of texas, hasn't had the opportunity to learn bike racing abc because their telle is a joke.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

then you're contradicting yourself & what this threat is all about:
the fact that AC did rebel against his DC advice tells me he definitely has a brain of his own, has the balls to go for the kill and ride by his own feelings...
those attributes tells me that he indeed is smart

I didn't say he isn't smart. I just don't think he is a tactical genius. Arcalis was incredibly smart, but there are other moments when he seems to have a mental lapse. If he weren't an intelligent rider he wouldn't learn from his mistakes, which I think he does (see the Paris-Nice food bonk).

Attacking in a climb when you're a good climber doesn't make you tactically intelligent. When I played basketball, I knew I was an excellent shooter, so I shot the ball (and made nearly 70% of my shots one season), but I didn't always understand the offense.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

You can be as smart as you want, if you don't have the legs it counts for ****.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Thor Hushovd. He won that maillot vert by being much cleverer than Cavendish.

Weirdly, cos I never thought I'd say this, but Valverde has been pretty smart recently, blowing up País Vasco on stage 1, splitting the group in the crosswinds in Paris-Nice, and not panicking on La Pandera in the Vuelta. The Valverde of old would have disappeared off the péloton for a rain jacket, got lost, decided to ride backwards for a km or tried to outsprint André Greipel and wasted a whole bunch of energy.