- Jun 16, 2009
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Publicus said:I'm sure you've tried to erase it completely from your memory banks at this point, but it just won't go away.Cuddles is going to win the Giro without a team, so that should make up for the pain and embarrassment that was the 2009 TdF.
(Think rainbows, Think rainbows)
Do you think he will limit his losses in the ttt?
PinchFlat said:
Interesting topic.
In my opinion, for what little it's worth:
Logic is the realm of procedures.
Tactics is about reading a situation and doing the unexpected, so it goes against logic (otherwise the other racers would expect the logical move) and is the artistic side of a somewhat scientific sport. And therefore somewhat undefined-- which is why people here can look at a single incident and argue both for and against tactical astuteness being demonstrated.
There is also, in many disciplines, a fundamental difference of opinion between Europeans and USAmericans in the definition of "tactics", so the discussion/argument can go on forever. Above, I am tending more to the European usage (or at least what it is in my former profession if not necessarily in cycling).
- Mar 10, 2009
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Michele said:
Add to this that the attack's success was due in large part to the other cars telling their riders to not help Boonen chase.
Also, the post that set off the TDF 09 firestorm also put forward Hincapie as a smart rider. Hincapie is an idiot on wheels. He is the ultimate "sit in and see what happens" rider, which usually means that the race rides away from him while he waits for it to develop.
Freire has been mentioned, and that's a good vote considering how many sprints he's won without a Quickstep/Columbia train to lead him out.
Hushovd was also mentioned, based on the strength of his 09 green jersey. I would remind the forum that this award was based on calculations that were likely performed at breakfast or in the team car with a pad and paper. True tactics take place on the road, and would be best observed in the hypothetical put forth by OP.
In this case, I would put Freire or McEwen over Hushovd, and Boonen or Ballan over Hincapie and maybe Cancellara.
Freire and McEwen have a knack for picking the right wheel or creating the right line in a sprint. Boonen and Ballan have a knack for picking the right attack to support (see almost any recent PR or Flanders.) or animating the race with their own attacks to create a situation where they can win.
Cancellara is good at turning on the gas and going very, very fast to win solo--but if that doesn't win him the race, then he's lost. Real tactics are guys who win against a stronger field (Ballan at the WC) or guys who are able to create beneficial situations on the road (which is how Boonen wins classics when Cancellara isn't in all-universe mode).
And Contador is a brilliant GT tactician: gain time in the mountains and gain time in the TTs. That's as good as it gets. (But it's also exceptionally boring.)
- Apr 9, 2009
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- Jul 9, 2009
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Is the smartest rider the one who has figured out how to medically adjust himself to the most advantageous level without getting caught?
- Oct 29, 2009
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You can be race smart in two ways. Strategy and tactics. A good tactician is very good at responding to what is going on in a given situation and turn that into a temporary advantage. A good strategist can point at a track record of taking the better broader view, coming up with an overall plan that makes the road to victory less susceptible to uncontrollable events and temporary setbacks.
Someone who is race smart is able to turn a weak hand into a better than expected result. Which means that it is often very hard to spot who was smarter in a race, as stronger legs tend to trump any great plan, although a great plan can keep those legs stronger for longer.
And nowadays, thanks to radios, a good DS can make a cauliflower look like the sort of tactician that would make Hannibal leave the Alps in shame, by turning highly informed race readings into ongoing race directions. When I found out that it wasn't Cancellara who picked the moment to jump, but the DS... I was immediately less impressed (turning bloody bloody brilliant into bloody brilliant).
And we shouldn't forget that race experience might trump talent in the short run, but isn't an indicator of actual "race smarts" either. People who want to point out that someone can't be smart because they failed to get the timing of their tactic right, in a maiden run against a more experienced rider are -well - saying that a 10 year old who got knocked out in the semis in an adult pro chess tournament proves he lacks chess insight and might as well apply for cashier job now as there was actually a better "someone" that year who did become champion.
Sometimes we can tell when someone makes a superb call however. When something really stands out.
Freire has so often been able to pick a race winning position when he was technically at a big disadvantage, in a situation where a DS car is useless, that he must have some race smarts.
Then there is the long list of riders who consistently pick the right breakaway group to jump away with. That can't be coincidence. That proves great tactical insight. And if you never win with it and that was your (team) goal, proving you're a bloody poor strategists too!
Contador made a superb tactical race call in the Pyrenees last year, picking the exact moment to do just enough, keeping his own strategy on course. Not only skewering the best laid plans by Lance and Bruyneel (in my mind without doubt ace strategists - and yes, buying all the good riders is a strategy too), but dealing a mortal blow to their entire Tour strategy with one Achilles heel blow - showing who is boss. If you can outmanoeuvre everyone else and your own team for the duration of the Tour, you really rule.
We will learn over time if Contador is a great strategist too, or simply so strong at the moment, that he can rely on a strategy that is nothing more than making the correct tactical calls in the mountains and wing it from there. Personally I think the Pyrenees move was an astute tactical and strategic call from Contador's perspective, but this year we'll probably get to see if he is indeed able to pick a race strategy for Astana that suits him best and neuters the chess games of others enough.
But someone with super legs will always look good, as a winner was always right in the end. So when we are talking about smart riders, I would prefer to look at riders from weaker teams, or younger riders, who are winning races or jerseys that they normally shouldn't be able to win (or get close to). People who know when to deal a blow. Who outmanoeuvre better riders. Or for race strategists, maybe we should take a closer look at the road captains, or budding road captains.
I find it hard to finger Contador, Lance, Freire, and other strong riders as "smartest" because they are also very very strong riders. They obviously aren't dumb, but I suspect there are people with better brains further down the field.
Someone who is race smart is able to turn a weak hand into a better than expected result. Which means that it is often very hard to spot who was smarter in a race, as stronger legs tend to trump any great plan, although a great plan can keep those legs stronger for longer.
And nowadays, thanks to radios, a good DS can make a cauliflower look like the sort of tactician that would make Hannibal leave the Alps in shame, by turning highly informed race readings into ongoing race directions. When I found out that it wasn't Cancellara who picked the moment to jump, but the DS... I was immediately less impressed (turning bloody bloody brilliant into bloody brilliant).
And we shouldn't forget that race experience might trump talent in the short run, but isn't an indicator of actual "race smarts" either. People who want to point out that someone can't be smart because they failed to get the timing of their tactic right, in a maiden run against a more experienced rider are -well - saying that a 10 year old who got knocked out in the semis in an adult pro chess tournament proves he lacks chess insight and might as well apply for cashier job now as there was actually a better "someone" that year who did become champion.
Sometimes we can tell when someone makes a superb call however. When something really stands out.
Freire has so often been able to pick a race winning position when he was technically at a big disadvantage, in a situation where a DS car is useless, that he must have some race smarts.
Then there is the long list of riders who consistently pick the right breakaway group to jump away with. That can't be coincidence. That proves great tactical insight. And if you never win with it and that was your (team) goal, proving you're a bloody poor strategists too!
Contador made a superb tactical race call in the Pyrenees last year, picking the exact moment to do just enough, keeping his own strategy on course. Not only skewering the best laid plans by Lance and Bruyneel (in my mind without doubt ace strategists - and yes, buying all the good riders is a strategy too), but dealing a mortal blow to their entire Tour strategy with one Achilles heel blow - showing who is boss. If you can outmanoeuvre everyone else and your own team for the duration of the Tour, you really rule.
We will learn over time if Contador is a great strategist too, or simply so strong at the moment, that he can rely on a strategy that is nothing more than making the correct tactical calls in the mountains and wing it from there. Personally I think the Pyrenees move was an astute tactical and strategic call from Contador's perspective, but this year we'll probably get to see if he is indeed able to pick a race strategy for Astana that suits him best and neuters the chess games of others enough.
But someone with super legs will always look good, as a winner was always right in the end. So when we are talking about smart riders, I would prefer to look at riders from weaker teams, or younger riders, who are winning races or jerseys that they normally shouldn't be able to win (or get close to). People who know when to deal a blow. Who outmanoeuvre better riders. Or for race strategists, maybe we should take a closer look at the road captains, or budding road captains.
I find it hard to finger Contador, Lance, Freire, and other strong riders as "smartest" because they are also very very strong riders. They obviously aren't dumb, but I suspect there are people with better brains further down the field.
mr. tibbs said:
Maybe in some situations but i thought he did well last year when trying to set up Cav in the last 10km and especially the last 2-3 where other teams would try to disrupt Columbia. Ok, so this is just a case of trying to stay at the front but i wouldnt have thought this is something he has done much during his career? Maybe this will affect Cav's chances in the tour this year and allow a different sprinter to win a bunch sprint or two?
- Jan 30, 2010
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For me, the smartest rider MUST be a one day racer
GT's are very predictable, and 99% of the time the strongest rider will win.
Added to that, one day racing is a mixture of strength and strategy.
So what's the answer?
OSCAR FREIRE
You just don't win what he has won (in pro and national teams) without having an absolute knowledge of your physical abilities and mental craftiness.
He is rarely the strongest rider in a bike race, in my opinion. He knows when to time his sprints in a bunch, when to get in a break, and how to outfox his opponents on the line.
He just doesn't look like that guy with all the natural talent (like, say a Cavendish was almost born with that turn of speed and then learnt how to use it).
Oscar, i would imagine, would analyse his opponents and say well, he can beat me in this, this and this situation, so how can I outfox him to win in 'this' situation (worlds, sanremo's, green jerseys points in breaks)
Despite rarely watching sprinters that much, he is one of my favourites, and especially after analysing his palmares more closely lately, i'm a big fan!
GT's are very predictable, and 99% of the time the strongest rider will win.
Added to that, one day racing is a mixture of strength and strategy.
So what's the answer?
OSCAR FREIRE
You just don't win what he has won (in pro and national teams) without having an absolute knowledge of your physical abilities and mental craftiness.
He is rarely the strongest rider in a bike race, in my opinion. He knows when to time his sprints in a bunch, when to get in a break, and how to outfox his opponents on the line.
He just doesn't look like that guy with all the natural talent (like, say a Cavendish was almost born with that turn of speed and then learnt how to use it).
Oscar, i would imagine, would analyse his opponents and say well, he can beat me in this, this and this situation, so how can I outfox him to win in 'this' situation (worlds, sanremo's, green jerseys points in breaks)
Despite rarely watching sprinters that much, he is one of my favourites, and especially after analysing his palmares more closely lately, i'm a big fan!
- Apr 8, 2009
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probally but he also had Cancellara, Voigt and O'Grady in the team - I think that group would of worked somthing out by themselvesFrosty said:
Why do you think Saxo is one of the top teams for.........dumb luck?
- Feb 20, 2010
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sportzchick said:
I think the smartest guy on that Saxo team was Kurt-Asle Arvesen. In fact, he might be the smartest guy around. You have a team chocked full of the likes of Cancellara, Voigt and O'Grady, but it's Arvesen that captained them. Widely renowned as the best road captain in the business. I can't take Óscarcito being called the smartest rider when he's once asked his teammate "how many laps to go?" to get the response "eh? We're in the last kilometre!"
Let's flip it round, and say, who's the dumbest tactician in cycling?
Hincapie tactically astute?? Well, it was certainly the best laugh I've had in a while - just remind me how many Classics he's won now?
IK you could also remind me how many times Armstrong has bested Contador when they've gone head to head? I appreciate the Spaniard prefers to compete in second rate races like L-B-L rather than the glories of Tour of Gila
Others have made the arguments much better than I but the essence of racing is exactly that, the ability to race - to have better legs than the next man - no point in being a tactical genius if you don't cross the finish line first. This emphasis on 'tactics', the 'chess on wheels' approach to the sport is entirely symptomatic of the modern radio era - riders like Merckx and Hinault didn't need to be told how to win. So I really quibble with the 'tactical genius' of Armstrong when his wins are indivisible from the whispering voice in the ear - is he a rider or merely a remote controlled robot? Who was controlled to the extent that Briuyneel would tell him when to get out of the saddle. Contrast to Contador, who is so tactically inept apparently that he has won all 3 GTs, won the TdF last year against his team orders, has a string of wins this year already and nearly pulled of the win at F-W.
I like Gilbert's intelligence as a rider, Freire's ability to find the right wheels, Hushovd's wiliness in taking the MV at the 2009 Tour, Cancellara's sheer strength, Contador's stage racing ability even Evan's tenacity in his F-W win. All were smart rides because they resulted in a win and really, what other criterion is there? You can have been tactically astute enough to place 2 men in the winning move but if they both lose out to a lone rider who outsprints them is that 'smart'?
IK you could also remind me how many times Armstrong has bested Contador when they've gone head to head? I appreciate the Spaniard prefers to compete in second rate races like L-B-L rather than the glories of Tour of Gila
Others have made the arguments much better than I but the essence of racing is exactly that, the ability to race - to have better legs than the next man - no point in being a tactical genius if you don't cross the finish line first. This emphasis on 'tactics', the 'chess on wheels' approach to the sport is entirely symptomatic of the modern radio era - riders like Merckx and Hinault didn't need to be told how to win. So I really quibble with the 'tactical genius' of Armstrong when his wins are indivisible from the whispering voice in the ear - is he a rider or merely a remote controlled robot? Who was controlled to the extent that Briuyneel would tell him when to get out of the saddle. Contrast to Contador, who is so tactically inept apparently that he has won all 3 GTs, won the TdF last year against his team orders, has a string of wins this year already and nearly pulled of the win at F-W.
I like Gilbert's intelligence as a rider, Freire's ability to find the right wheels, Hushovd's wiliness in taking the MV at the 2009 Tour, Cancellara's sheer strength, Contador's stage racing ability even Evan's tenacity in his F-W win. All were smart rides because they resulted in a win and really, what other criterion is there? You can have been tactically astute enough to place 2 men in the winning move but if they both lose out to a lone rider who outsprints them is that 'smart'?
- Mar 18, 2009
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Having just read all of these pages, I am really not convinced that many of the current riders are tactically astute. Most riders, regardless of how strong they are, are told what to do and when by their DS who is sitting in a car with a TV and a radio and is able to see what is happening in the race.
Today's best tacticians?
In stage races, Di Luca is the only rider who showed any tactical skills because he supposedly raced without a radio and, despite this, showed very good skills in being able to read a race, cover threats, and position himself in the right place at the right time. Other than that, most stage racers work to their strengths at the appropriate time and when told by their DS.
Classic races. Gilbert has been consistent in all of the classics and he has shown good ability to read the race and back his legs, the 2008 Het Volk being the best example of this. I think he is probably the best tactician of the current crop of classic riders.
Cancellara also has the same ability. His 2010 Paris-Roubaix victory was because his DS told him to go when he saw Boonen on the back of the group, but his 2006 Paris-Roubaix victory was because he saw a chance on the road, a chance that his DS thought was too early, and trusted his legs. I am not sure how many of his other victories were because of tactical skills or just brute strength, but stage 3 of the 2007 TdF, Milan-San Remo in 2008, and E3 Prijs Vlaanderen and RVV in 2010 were all impressive victories, but formulaic with a strong break in the last few kms and then using his time trialling skills.
While I am a fan of both Evans and Contador, Evans win in last weekend's Fleche Wallone was based on experience rather than tactical nouse, having lost the race in similar circumstances to Contador this year back in 2008. Is experience the same as tactics? I personally don't think so, but it plays a part. Other classic riders who have done well because of tactical skills and experience include Boonen and Valverde. But Boonen's was exposed this year when he didn't or couldn't cover Cancellara at important points in the race, especially Paris-Roubaix.
But the best tacticians have to be the sprinters who do not rely on a train for their wins. Robbie McEwen and Oscar Friere both have an uncanny ability to find themselves at the pointy end of the race at exactly the right time.
Today's best tacticians?
In stage races, Di Luca is the only rider who showed any tactical skills because he supposedly raced without a radio and, despite this, showed very good skills in being able to read a race, cover threats, and position himself in the right place at the right time. Other than that, most stage racers work to their strengths at the appropriate time and when told by their DS.
Classic races. Gilbert has been consistent in all of the classics and he has shown good ability to read the race and back his legs, the 2008 Het Volk being the best example of this. I think he is probably the best tactician of the current crop of classic riders.
Cancellara also has the same ability. His 2010 Paris-Roubaix victory was because his DS told him to go when he saw Boonen on the back of the group, but his 2006 Paris-Roubaix victory was because he saw a chance on the road, a chance that his DS thought was too early, and trusted his legs. I am not sure how many of his other victories were because of tactical skills or just brute strength, but stage 3 of the 2007 TdF, Milan-San Remo in 2008, and E3 Prijs Vlaanderen and RVV in 2010 were all impressive victories, but formulaic with a strong break in the last few kms and then using his time trialling skills.
While I am a fan of both Evans and Contador, Evans win in last weekend's Fleche Wallone was based on experience rather than tactical nouse, having lost the race in similar circumstances to Contador this year back in 2008. Is experience the same as tactics? I personally don't think so, but it plays a part. Other classic riders who have done well because of tactical skills and experience include Boonen and Valverde. But Boonen's was exposed this year when he didn't or couldn't cover Cancellara at important points in the race, especially Paris-Roubaix.
But the best tacticians have to be the sprinters who do not rely on a train for their wins. Robbie McEwen and Oscar Friere both have an uncanny ability to find themselves at the pointy end of the race at exactly the right time.
buckwheat
BANNED
- Sep 24, 2009
- 1,852
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Great post
Of course it doesn't stand a chance with the man love exhibited here:
"If you look at the Tour de France last year, there is no doubt that Contador is the best athlete. But he simply does not have the wisdom that Lance has," he makes silly mistakes. If you look at Lance's fifth and sixth Tour wins, that was when he was really at the top of his game. He was in great physical shape, but he had stopped making mistakes. So, that wisdom can go a long way; we'll see more this year."
Nathan Dahlberg
I'm wondering what we're going to see this year. Rumor has it that wonderboy is going to slip Contador a bike whose resin is impregnated with C-4. Lance will prove once and for all that carbon fiber really does asplode...
PS, Is there a written part of the Tour this year?
bianchigirl said:Hincapie tactically astute?? Well, it was certainly the best laugh I've had in a while - just remind me how many Classics he's won now?
IK you could also remind me how many times Armstrong has bested Contador when they've gone head to head? I appreciate the Spaniard prefers to compete in second rate races like L-B-L rather than the glories of Tour of Gila
Others have made the arguments much better than I but the essence of racing is exactly that, the ability to race - to have better legs than the next man - no point in being a tactical genius if you don't cross the finish line first. This emphasis on 'tactics', the 'chess on wheels' approach to the sport is entirely symptomatic of the modern radio era - riders like Merckx and Hinault didn't need to be told how to win. So I really quibble with the 'tactical genius' of Armstrong when his wins are indivisible from the whispering voice in the ear - is he a rider or merely a remote controlled robot? Who was controlled to the extent that Briuyneel would tell him when to get out of the saddle. Contrast to Contador, who is so tactically inept apparently that he has won all 3 GTs, won the TdF last year against his team orders, has a string of wins this year already and nearly pulled of the win at F-W.
I like Gilbert's intelligence as a rider, Freire's ability to find the right wheels, Hushovd's wiliness in taking the MV at the 2009 Tour, Cancellara's sheer strength, Contador's stage racing ability even Evan's tenacity in his F-W win. All were smart rides because they resulted in a win and really, what other criterion is there? You can have been tactically astute enough to place 2 men in the winning move but if they both lose out to a lone rider who outsprints them is that 'smart'?
Of course it doesn't stand a chance with the man love exhibited here:
"If you look at the Tour de France last year, there is no doubt that Contador is the best athlete. But he simply does not have the wisdom that Lance has," he makes silly mistakes. If you look at Lance's fifth and sixth Tour wins, that was when he was really at the top of his game. He was in great physical shape, but he had stopped making mistakes. So, that wisdom can go a long way; we'll see more this year."
Nathan Dahlberg
I'm wondering what we're going to see this year. Rumor has it that wonderboy is going to slip Contador a bike whose resin is impregnated with C-4. Lance will prove once and for all that carbon fiber really does asplode...
PS, Is there a written part of the Tour this year?
I wonder how much pro cycling Nathan Dahlberg had watched pre 2000?
Elapid I agree with a lot of what you say - until we can take the radios out of the equation then there's no way of knowing which riders are genuinely 'smart', unless we simply mean 'most obedient'?
I would say the Astana team tactics were smart today at L-B-L and that Gilbert's ride was all heart
Elapid I agree with a lot of what you say - until we can take the radios out of the equation then there's no way of knowing which riders are genuinely 'smart', unless we simply mean 'most obedient'?
I would say the Astana team tactics were smart today at L-B-L
and that Gilbert's ride was all heartsmartest riders are not the thing which consider to be won all the time besides to create critical moment of the game while racing, and robbie does all the great things when usually has race, and buying at your favorite grocery store requires that shoppers should be wise so as not to be fooled by fake labels which are sometimes too good to be true. When you want to buy some ornaments, you will definitely need the skill to distinguish true gold from deceiving glitz and glitter of some jewelry.
For sports minded people, shopping is also a big consideration. Your sports apparel should mix together well and fit the needs of the sport you are engaged in. Bikers are usually very particular with their motorcycle apparel. Apparel encompasses different accessories from helmets, clothes, chaps, and boots, to even eyewear. Motorcycle apparel is usually made of leather, as leather is flexible and strong and won’t let you feel the friction between your clothes and skin, although leather can sometimes be very expensive depending of its kind. Leather also has other characteristic that cannot be found in ordinary fabric and best fits motorcycling.
Another important form of apparel which serves as the protective head gear for bikers is the helmet. The helmet should be perfect in size as shape and size of your head and should be able to protect you, should minor or major accidents occur.
With regards to helmets, the world’s top helmet – HJC helmets - are available wherever in the world you may be and can even be purchased online if the downtown distributor is far away from your location. With HJC helmet, you can be assured that your helmet will be your protector as the company has been producing quality helmet like Ben Spies Replica and RPS Patriot over the long years of being in the business. You can have a wide variety of choices of colors, designs and features. Your biking experience will be more fulfilling and more exciting knowing that helmet is made to for your safety, comfort and better looks. So when it comes to your biking needs, you always need to make the smartest choices.
For sports minded people, shopping is also a big consideration. Your sports apparel should mix together well and fit the needs of the sport you are engaged in. Bikers are usually very particular with their motorcycle apparel. Apparel encompasses different accessories from helmets, clothes, chaps, and boots, to even eyewear. Motorcycle apparel is usually made of leather, as leather is flexible and strong and won’t let you feel the friction between your clothes and skin, although leather can sometimes be very expensive depending of its kind. Leather also has other characteristic that cannot be found in ordinary fabric and best fits motorcycling.
Another important form of apparel which serves as the protective head gear for bikers is the helmet. The helmet should be perfect in size as shape and size of your head and should be able to protect you, should minor or major accidents occur.
With regards to helmets, the world’s top helmet – HJC helmets - are available wherever in the world you may be and can even be purchased online if the downtown distributor is far away from your location. With HJC helmet, you can be assured that your helmet will be your protector as the company has been producing quality helmet like Ben Spies Replica and RPS Patriot over the long years of being in the business. You can have a wide variety of choices of colors, designs and features. Your biking experience will be more fulfilling and more exciting knowing that helmet is made to for your safety, comfort and better looks. So when it comes to your biking needs, you always need to make the smartest choices.
- Apr 12, 2009
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Phil Anderson's teammates always said that he had an uncanny ability to read a race.
As for more recent riders: I'm not a big LA fan, but he was ruthlessly intelligent on the bike, knowing exactly how to prepare and even how to win the rare TDF where he was outmatched (namely 2003).
As for DSs, Cyrile Guimard's former stars have often said that he had an uncanny sense for knowing exactly when they should attack. Both Fignon and Van Impe tell stories about moments where Guimard told them to go for it, and they thought he was crazy, but in retrospect he turned out to be exactly on the money. Both Fignon and Lemond will tell you that Guimard knew precisely what was going on at L'Alpe d'Huez in 1989, and that Fignon basically lost that Tour by not attacking earlier on the climb as Guimard ordered him to.
As for more recent riders: I'm not a big LA fan, but he was ruthlessly intelligent on the bike, knowing exactly how to prepare and even how to win the rare TDF where he was outmatched (namely 2003).
As for DSs, Cyrile Guimard's former stars have often said that he had an uncanny sense for knowing exactly when they should attack. Both Fignon and Van Impe tell stories about moments where Guimard told them to go for it, and they thought he was crazy, but in retrospect he turned out to be exactly on the money. Both Fignon and Lemond will tell you that Guimard knew precisely what was going on at L'Alpe d'Huez in 1989, and that Fignon basically lost that Tour by not attacking earlier on the climb as Guimard ordered him to.
Thoughtforfood said:
I would normally agree with you... but not in this particular case.
If you looked at the composition of the break, the only GC threats present that weren't on the Astana team were Rogers and Gerdeman. To be quite honest, from a team strategy stand point, I never saw the worry for Contador in losing 40 seconds to that group of riders. It only helped a secondary rider from his own team gain time. I'd expect that if Sastre and Menchov were in a race and a similar thing occurred with one back and the other in the front group with non-threatening riders... their team would push the pace as well.
What spoke more toward the disfunction of the team was Verbier, where Kloden and Lance went to the front at one point with Contador up the road. They should NEVER have been at the front of a chase group with Contador in the lead, helping riders who were actually contending to limit their losses. Others let them chase, then when Lance popped they took off... it didnt' help the team in any way, just other riders.
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