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Who had the best Tour de France program - NON LANCE

May 6, 2009
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Normally Armstrong wins hands down, but here, who else had the best program? I like Ullrich and Pantani, as well as Flandis in 2006.
 
oscar perreiro cant have had a bad one. He went from decent cyclist to super climber for a few days in the alps, beating kloeden evans, rasmussen on alp stages and taking 7 minutes from an obviously doped up floyd on another one. He even came 4th in the time trial.

He has done nothing since despite having been young when he put in these superman performances.

Might not be the best programme but surely it should be considered. The equivalent today would be Christophe Le mevel suddenly winning the tdf.
 
Pereiro wasn't young, he was 29. He didn't do anything after that Tour because he forgot what made him good was the fact that he spent the whole day away from the bunch, not trying to ride with the favourites. He was also a decent time trialist back when he was in Portugal - although 4th looks a bit too good and I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to go some extra lengths once they found themselves in a position to win the Tour.

His performances in the mountains didn't strike me as surprising. He was good.

edit: more on topic: Rijs.
 
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Riis by a mile. Blood the consistency of shaving gel gave him a Tour win. Obviously, the 1996 field was ripe with EPO, but his program was obviously superior.
 
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Kayle Leogrande should at least get an 'honorable' mention.

He went from a tattoo artist/local SoCal crit rider to stomping everybody at superweek in the span of several months.

I realize this was not on the world stage but was impressive nevertheless.

Super-responder? You betcha.

EDIT: I should have looked a little closer to the title of this thread. KL was never TdF material even with his programme.
 
Oct 6, 2009
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Obviously it's the other 8 guys on USPS/Disco each year, since they had special treatment to allow for extra doping that other teams didn't have.

For a non-Bruyneel pick, I'd have to agree with those that said Riis.
 
The Hitch said:
oscar perreiro cant have had a bad one. He went from decent cyclist to super climber for a few days in the alps, beating kloeden evans, rasmussen on alp stages and taking 7 minutes from an obviously doped up floyd on another one. He even came 4th in the time trial.

He has done nothing since despite having been young when he put in these superman performances.

Might not be the best programme but surely it should be considered. The equivalent today would be Christophe Le mevel suddenly winning the tdf.

I always wondered why this wasnt mentioned more. His transformation was amazing.
 
Yeah, it's not like he was 10th in 2005 and 2004 while spending lots of energy in breakways, or 11th in the 2002 Giro, or 3rd in the 2003 Tour de Suisse.

He rode for Phonak and Caisse, I'm pretty sure he doped, but questioning his climbing abilities at that Tour I think only shows how little you knew about Pereiro before 2006.

His peformance was not more of a sudden improvement than, say, Voeckler or Dessel defending their maillot jaunes. They all found themselves in a completely different situation and rode accordingly.
 
hrotha said:
Yeah, it's not like he was 10th in 2005 and 2004 while spending lots of energy in breakways, or 11th in the 2002 Giro, or 3rd in the 2003 Tour de Suisse.

He rode for Phonak and Caisse, I'm pretty sure he doped, but questioning his climbing abilities at that Tour I think only shows how little you knew about Pereiro before 2006.

His peformance was not more of a sudden improvement than, say, Voeckler or Dessel defending their maillot jaunes. They all found themselves in a completely different situation and rode accordingly.

I suppose the fact that he was getting dropped like a stone on the climbs early in the race made me wonder why he wasnt getting dropped later in the race.
Stage 11 (big mountain stage) - loses 26 minutes
Stage 16 (another big mountain stage) - finishes within 2 minutes of Rasmussen
All other mountain stages late in the race - finishes within 2-3 minutes of the winner (except the 'Landis' stage, where he finishes with a couple of minutes of 2nd place).
Same with the time trials:
Prologue - 57th
First TT - 23rd
Final TT - 4th

No, of course there was nothing suspicious with his performance..:rolleyes:
 
Nick777 said:
I suppose the fact that he was getting dropped like a stone on the climbs early in the race made me wonder why he wasnt getting dropped later in the race.
Stage 11 (big mountain stage) - loses 26 minutes
Stage 16 (another big mountain stage) - finishes within 2 minutes of Rasmussen
All other mountain stages late in the race - finishes within 2-3 minutes of the winner (except the 'Landis' stage, where he finishes with a couple of minutes of 2nd place).
Same with the time trials:
Prologue - 57th
First TT - 23rd
Final TT - 4th

No, of course there was nothing suspicious with his performance..:rolleyes:
In context, seeing how the race went, sure. Note I said earlier they (Pereiro and his team) probably decided to go extra lengths once they saw they could win the Tour. I was referring more to his performance in absolute terms, as earlier posts seemed to suggest Pereiro could never have climbed like that in normal conditions.
 
hrotha said:
In context, seeing how the race went, sure. Note I said earlier they (Pereiro and his team) probably decided to go extra lengths once they saw they could win the Tour. I was referring more to his performance in absolute terms, as earlier posts seemed to suggest Pereiro could never have climbed like that in normal conditions.

Once again. Its not that Perreiro was a good climber or held his own.

Its that, all the good climbers, and favourites going into the race, in the alps he BEAT them.

Here are the time gaps to menchov, kloeden, sastre and evans going into the alps

4 Denis Menchov Russia Rabobank 2'30"
5 Cadel Evans Australia Davitamon-Lotto 2'46"
6 Carlos Sastre Spain Team CSC 3'21"
7 Andreas Klöden Germany T-Mobile Team 3'58"

and here they leaving the alps.

2 Andreas Klöden Germany T-Mobile Team 31
4 Carlos Sastre Spain Team CSC 2'16"
5 Cadel Evans Australia Davitamon-Lotto 4'11"
6 Denis Menchov Russia Rabobank 6'39"

So in all the alpine stages put together, Kloeden took 3 and a half minutes from, Perreiro in the alps, Sastre the super climber took a grand 1 minute, and Menchov and Evans, lost 4 and 2 minutes respectively. Oh and if it means anything he only lost 2 and a half minutes to super doped up favourite Floyd Landis.

This is to say nothing of people like Rasmussen, Rogers and Leipheimer who Perrerio beat in the alps by a lot lot more.

This is not the performance of someone who is a solid climber, or even a mountain goat. This is the performance of a world class gc contender of the contador and andy schleck variety, something Perreiro never was before, or after those 6 sunny days in July 2006.
 
The Hitch said:
So in all the alpine stages put together, Kloeden took 3 and a half minutes from, Perreiro in the alps, Sastre the super climber took a grand 1 minute, and Menchov and Evans, lost 4 and 2 minutes respectively. Oh and if it means anything he only lost 2 and a half minutes to super doped up favourite Floyd Landis.

This is to say nothing of people like Rasmussen, Rogers and Leipheimer who Perrerio beat in the alps by a lot lot more.

This is not the performance of someone who is a solid climber, or even a mountain goat. This is the performance of a world class gc contender of the contador and andy schleck variety, something Perreiro never was before, or after those 6 sunny days in July 2006.
The defining characteristic of the 2006 Tour was that there were no GC contenders of the Contador and Andy Schleck variety left. Armstrong had retired, and pretty much everyone else had to stay home due to Puerto. Klöden was the only one who had already had a shot at the TdF podium, and he took plenty of time on Pereiro. Up to that point, Sastre's best placing had been 8th in 2004. Evans had been 8th in 2005. Rasmussen, Rogers and Leipheimer had similar records at best. Menchov had won a Vuelta but otherwise rode with the accostumbed unpredictability and inconsistency, with an 11th overall being his best result up to that point, if I'm not mistaken.

The suspicious bit is that Pereiro recovered from a disastrous start and found his best form in the latter half of the race, not that his performance, per se, was suspicious or beyond his capabilities as demonstrated in previous years.

I consider it fairly likely that he doped once he got the maillot jaune to make up for his relative lack of form, but I don't think it's necessary to make him out to be a worse rider than he was.
 
hrotha said:
The defining characteristic of the 2006 Tour was that there were no GC contenders of the Contador and Andy Schleck variety left. Armstrong had retired, and pretty much everyone else had to stay home due to Puerto. Klöden was the only one who had already had a shot at the TdF podium, and he took plenty of time on Pereiro. Up to that point, Sastre's best placing had been 8th in 2004. Evans had been 8th in 2005. Rasmussen, Rogers and Leipheimer had similar records at best. Menchov had won a Vuelta but otherwise rode with the accostumbed unpredictability and inconsistency, with an 11th overall being his best result up to that point, if I'm not mistaken.

The suspicious bit is that Pereiro recovered from a disastrous start and found his best form in the latter half of the race, not that his performance, per se, was suspicious or beyond his capabilities as demonstrated in previous years.

I consider it fairly likely that he doped once he got the maillot jaune to make up for his relative lack of form, but I don't think it's necessary to make him out to be a worse rider than he was.

But i heard that you cant just start doping like that. You need to build it up slowly before the tour. If he just started doping the day he got the mailot jaune he would not have been able to compete with floyd.

And for me, losing 2and a half minutes to doped up floyd and 3 minutes to kloeden in the 2006 alpine stages is no mean feat, especially when you consider that it was up to those guys to take back time from Perreiro. 2006 was a very difficult version and included the huez. People better than perreiro have lost more than 3 minutes on the alp d huez alone, yet perreiro limited his losses to that throughout the alps.
 
The Hitch said:
But i heard that you cant just start doping like that. You need to build it up slowly before the tour. If he just started doping the day he got the mailot jaune he would not have been able to compete with floyd.

And for me, losing 2and a half minutes to doped up floyd and 3 minutes to kloeden in the 2006 alpine stages is no mean feat, especially when you consider that it was up to those guys to take back time from Perreiro. 2006 was a very difficult version and included the huez. People better than perreiro have lost more than 3 minutes on the alp d huez alone, yet perreiro limited his losses to that throughout the alps.
Honestly, I don't know. Performances like Landis's big day out at that Tour lead me to think it is possible to get a sudden boost, but I have no idea about the physiological factors involved. If Pereiro couldn't get such a boost to get back his form once he found himself in front of the GC, that to me would mean either that he was clean(ish), or that his program wasn't significantly better than any other year, as in my opinion his performance wasn't above his standards, all things considered.
 
May 13, 2009
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The Hitch said:
But i heard that you cant just start doping like that. You need to build it up slowly before the tour. If he just started doping the day he got the mailot jaune he would not have been able to compete with floyd.

I don't know about that. So what would you do if you're unexpectedly leading at the end of week 2 of the TdF but you don't have the preparation of a good program? Probably the easiest would be to do a homologous transfusion (assuming you don't have squirreled away a bag or two of your own juice.) The homologous transfusion should give you the similar benefits as an autologous one. The flip side is of course that it's easier to detect. Was he tested?

I think in Vino's case, he was having the terrible accident in week one. Probably he needed to crack open all the week 2 and 3 reserves just to get over that one. Then, when he was out of his own bags, he did a homologous transfusion out of desperation which gave him the ITT and extra scrutiny.

To answer the topic question, I'd agree on Riis. You don't earn the name Mr. 60% on weak sauce (and 60% was a lower limit, if you believe the rumors).
 
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What about Pantani? I remember reading after he broke his leg his doctor that treated him was horrified at how viscous his blood was.

A week after returning from the 1995 world’s in high-altitude Colombia, Pantani competed at the Milan-Turin race, a minor classic in Italy. On the fast descent into Turin, he was involved in a frightening head-on crash with an SUV, sustaining multiple fractures to his left leg that threatened his career.

In the hospital, Pantani had the regulation blood tests, and several years later, it was revealed that his blood hematocrit percentage following the accident was more than 60 percent. Between the accident and the revelation four years later, the UCI had begun regular blood tests at races, and any rider caught with an above 50-percent reading was given a compulsory two-week suspension — on the suspicion that the athlete was using the banned blood-boosting drug, EPO. But even though that program didn’t start until well after Pantani’s accident, it didn’t stop the Turin prosecutor from indicting Pantani on a so-called “fraud in sport” charge — a case that was eventually dismissed because the law itself had only been passed in 1999.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2004/02/news/marco-pantani-a-tragic-figure_5563
 
Cobblestones said:
I don't know about that. So what would you do if you're unexpectedly leading at the end of week 2 of the TdF but you don't have the preparation of a good program? Probably the easiest would be to do a homologous transfusion (assuming you don't have squirreled away a bag or two of your own juice.) The homologous transfusion should give you the similar benefits as an autologous one. The flip side is of course that it's easier to detect. Was he tested?

I think in Vino's case, he was having the terrible accident in week one. Probably he needed to crack open all the week 2 and 3 reserves just to get over that one. Then, when he was out of his own bags, he did a homologous transfusion out of desperation which gave him the ITT and extra scrutiny.

To answer the topic question, I'd agree on Riis. You don't earn the name Mr. 60% on weak sauce (and 60% was a lower limit, if you believe the rumors).

your knowledge on this is vastly superior to mine. How does a homologous blood transfusion work?
 
May 13, 2009
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The Hitch said:
your knowledge on this is vastly superior to mine. How does a homologous blood transfusion work?

You use someone else's blood. Otherwise it's all equal. What Vino did essentially to earn his two years.