Who's really responsible?

[mwbyrd]

With all the stuff about USADA vs. Lance, I wanted to start a thread to see what people's opinion is about who is really responsible.

It's all agreed that there was a 'doping' age of cycling. Similar to the Steriod era in baseball. Nothing earth shattering there.

But, it seems like the athletes take the bullet for their respective sports. I find it hard to believe that the UCI and USADA in Cycling and the head of MLB didn't know what was going on.

They allowed it to flourish because the money was good. And for the money to be good, they needed fans. Nobody complained while LA won 7 in a row or McGuire and Sosa chased the HR record.

The athletes provided the theater, the fans ate it up, and the guys running the show got wealthy.

So, instead of pinning doping on 1 or 2 athletes/teams/doctors, who do you think is REALLY responsible?

 

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

So, instead of pinning doping on 1 or 2 athletes/teams/doctors, who do you think is REALLY responsible?

You and the rest of the apologists like yourself are responsible.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

You and the rest of the apologists like yourself are responsible.

I cannot imagine a better answer, so close the thread.

 

[MarkvW]

You and the rest of the apologists like yourself are responsible.

All the fans are responsible--not just the fanboys. If we abandoned the sport because it was so filthy, the sport would change.

 

[131313]

it's hard to even have a reasonable discussion about what is actually a legit question when you phrase it in such a blatantly ridiculous matter and pepper it with accusations not based in reality.

-blaming the USADA is a little silly since they weren't even involved in cycling until this doping machine was in full swing.

-who on earth blamed this on "one or two riders" or "one or two teams"? More likely it's only now focused on the one rider and team that you actually care about. Big newsflash, there are one or two other guys implicated as well over the last 20 years. You may want to look around a bit.

-lots of guys complained while LA was winning his later Tours. They were just cast off as bitter whiners, or worse, French... Many at the time saw it for the fraud it was.

There's PLENTY of blame to go around, but I guess you could start first with those who threatened people who tried to expose the truth, and those who worked the hardest to perpetuate the fraud through intimidation. That works for me.

 

[ElChingon]

All the fans are responsible

That is the answer (no need to add to that sentence).

We are responsible (assuming I'm talking to cycling fans, for reference), even though some will categorically deny it and start with this and that. Nope, we are responsible, it started way back when (before me) when the races were more like RAAM is now, where they'd basically race for themselves and then some body wanting to sell this newfangled thing called a paper with writing on it for people to read wrote a story about these races. People read it and were mesmerized and drawn in (yea, that had to of been some good writing or everyone was that bored if its anything like the writing today). The stories got tame after a while and then people wanted more, more drama, more action, more human agony. Well I bet the newspapers wanted to sell more as well which had them writing for more as well, again cycling fans. Riders wanted to do more and please the crowds to be in the lime light and of course bigger prizes and bigger paychecks. So they did everything they could think of to win, as any human with the desire for more... comfort, monetary value, acceptance, glory, basically just add in all the vices and virtues while you're at it, happens to everything you know of anyway, should not be unknown to you (and me).

Flash forward and here we are today.

 

[nevada]

That is the answer (no need to add to that sentence).

We are responsible (assuming I'm talking to cycling fans, for reference), even though some will categorically deny it and start with this and that. Nope, we are responsible, it started way back when (before me) when the races were more like RAAM is now, where they'd basically race for themselves and then some body wanting to sell this newfangled thing called a paper with writing on it for people to read wrote a story about these races. People read it and were mesmerized and drawn in (yea, that had to of been some good writing or everyone was that bored if its anything like the writing today). The stories got tame after a while and then people wanted more, more drama, more action, more human agony. Well I bet the newspapers wanted to sell more as well which had them writing for more as well, again cycling fans. Riders wanted to do more and please the crowds to be in the lime light and of course bigger prizes and bigger paychecks. So they did everything they could think of to win, as any human with the desire for more... comfort, monetary value, acceptance, glory, basically just add in all the vices and virtues while you're at it, happens to everything you know of anyway, should not be unknown to you (and me).

Flash forward and here we are today.

So if the 20 contributors to the clinic stop watching and buying things will change ?

The UCI is the problem.

 

[DirtyWorks]

So if the 20 contributors to the clinic stop watching and buying things will change ?

The UCI is the problem.

Getting warmer... Re-read the SI article on Wonderboy. There's some peripheral stuff regarding USOC testing that should offer some clues about how the USOC/IOC likes doping matters. Very helpful background here too: http://www.podiumcafe.com/tags/tough-on-doping?order=date&scope=affiliation&type=FanPost

ElChingon is right. When Wonderboy's train was blasting up the sides of mountains and then Wonderboy goes flying off the front like he's been shot out of a cannon, there weren't too many people wondering about how that is possible once a year. The ones that started publicly asking questions were shouted down at the time, including the one guy who started cyclingnews.com. So, you can't just flat deny spectators/fans have something to do with it.

The formulation of the Original Post is ridiculous though. As 131313 points out, it's not one thing or another.

 

[danjo007]

ElChingon is right. When Wonderboy's train was blasting up the sides of mountains and then Wonderboy goes flying off the front like he's been shot out of a cannon, there weren't too many people wondering about how that is possible once a year. The ones that started publicly asking questions were shouted down at the time, including the one guy who started cyclingnews.com.

so is that why this site is so unbiased?

 

[DirtyWorks]

so is that why this site is so unbiased?

Check the facts. "blasting" is a bit of hyperbole, but:
-Postal train? Yup.
-Wonderboy crushing maybe once a year? Yup.
-Founder of cyclingnews.com's story? Yup.

Whatever you do, don't let the facts get in the way of being right.

 

[Berzin]

I blame the pathetic state of idol worship that infects fans of sport like a virus.

People who cannot differentiate between the sport of cycling and the fanboy man-crushes that have consumed them to the point where they shed their integrity and defend frauds like Armstrong at all costs.

Some people never get over their high school/college years, especially if they were on the outside looking in, where jocks are worshiped and get all the pretty girls. It's quite a psychological conundrum when you despise the very a-holes you want to be like so badly. The next best thing is to cheer them on and become a groupie, regardless of how shameless and emasculating it is for a grown man to do so.

The trauma of never having been a jock or one of the cool kids in school is something that many never get over, and it manifests itself in how they see Armstrong as an extension of themselves, only with more talent and money.

Which is why they take the attacks on Armstrong so personally.

 

[Roninho]

Well, multiple reasons imo.

First of all the historical development of the sport and the changes in peoples perception of doping. Cycling didn't get to be a sport full of dopers overnight. Why did it become such a sport, well first of all doping works extremely well in a sport as cycling, and 2ndly in the old days doping wasn't seen as such an issue. That made it easy to start doping, and most involved used it back in the day. Slowly these dopers progressed in the structure and pyramide of cycling. As a result of this you get all/most of the stakeholders in the sport (from the governing body, the teamowners, the teammanagement, the doctors, the pro-riders, the amateur teams & riders, etc. etc.) having been in contact with doping in one form or another, and in the very least have seen others be involved in it. The discussion of stripping lance from his victories is a perfect example: strip one doper off a victory and the next in line is a doper as well. With a pyramid full of people with experience with doping you end up with a culture full of doping. Which wasn't an issue back in the day, but today it is since the general viewpoint towards doping has changed.

2ndly, the people in control of this sport don't really want to clean up the sport. Í'm not sure why (my guess would be that they would be incriminated to badly if they take the topguys down (or alter the balance of power)) but if they really would want to get rid of doping they could simply announce that starting 1-1-2013 we will start doing retroactive testing 2,4&6 years after the major events with the latest anti-dope technologies.

3rdly, the people in control of this sport are doing a lousy job at keeping the status quo. If you decide: we don't really want to fight to have a clean sport (because of whatever reason) then it makes zero sense to actively test a lot and get your star riders popped for dope usage. Because from a financiall perspective it has been an awfull decade with the rasmussen, vino, landis, kohl, di luca, rebbelin, contador, etc. etc. etc. all getting into doping cases. Guys like Basso and Ullrich simply had bad luch that their supplier got caught by the cops, but it makes no sense to get rid of guys like rasmussen when you know that the chances of detection are so limited that the topriders have to dope to compete. All it does is that it does not stop doing, but it does make you get rid of a bunch of star cyclist and get the sport in a very negative position. Don't get me wrong, i want retro-testing really bad, but if you are going to run the sport like a mobster, you better do it smart imo...

 

[Houndbike]

I blame the pathetic state of idol worship that infects fans of sport like a virus.

People who cannot differentiate between the sport of cycling and the fanboy man-crushes that have consumed them to the point where they shed their integrity and defend frauds like Armstrong at all costs.

Some people never get over their high school/college years, especially if they were on the outside looking in, where jocks are worshiped and get all the pretty girls. It's quite a psychological conundrum when you despise the very a-holes you want to be like so badly. The next best thing is to cheer them on and become a groupie, regardless of how shameless and emasculating it is for a grown man to do so.

The trauma of never having been a jock or one of the cool kids in school is something that many never get over, and it manifests itself in how they see Armstrong as an extension of themselves, only with more talent and money.

Which is why they take the attacks on Armstrong so personally.

Damn, i'd been wondering something similar but you've nailed it on the head. Add in the fact that cycling has been a dork sport for many years and suddenly here was someone who was cool and making the dork sport was cool and BOOM, emperor's new clothes.

 

[mwbyrd]

Well, multiple reasons imo.

Don't get me wrong, i want retro-testing really bad, but if you are going to run the sport like a mobster, you better do it smart imo...

Great Response to the OP!

 

[BotanyBay]

Everyone makes choices, but there's nothing in the manual of humanity saying that we must behave like sheep. Sometimes you need to walk away from things you think you loved, and sometimes you need to be willing to be that nail that sticks-out and say something.

I'll never say that being human is easy (it ain't) but being a non-sheep is a tough job.

 

[Race Radio]

You and the rest of the apologists like yourself are responsible.

This is very key ingredient to the mess.

Never have so many people been willing to suspend rational thought to protect a myth. It let the problem grow unchecked for years

 

[noddy69]

Many people hold responsibility for the mess thats happening at the minute.

First and foremost is the one who takes the drug. You then have those that facilitate and possibly push it, the riders who push it and those that turn a blind eye. There are those that supply it. No one person is responsible, but each must take responsibility. I re read this from a few years ago and it did make me re think the whole situation and just how easy it would have been to crack down earlier if the will had been there http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated
But it wasnt. So we now must look to find all those responsible and involved and sort out the mess once and for all. The one thing that should not be done is what many are crying for, that is to let the past lie , isnt that what got cycling here in the first place.

 

[JRTinMA]

You and the rest of the apologists like yourself are responsible.

What an utterly ridiculous concept. The fans have little or no responsibility at all in the mess that is cycling. Greed is why cycling is in the mess its in and its responsible for 99% of all the problems in cycling. Greed drove the UCI to look the other way when Lance et al were full of dope and charging up mountains. Greed drove the riders to dope in the first place. Greed drove Trek, Nike, Look, Time and every other company to keep providing products to doped athletes. Greed drove ASO to allow Lance to race the 04 tour even when they had 6 positive EPO tests, they could have excluded him just like they did to the Puerto crew. Greed allows for Armstrong and Indurain to submit backdated TUEs and not be banned. Yeah, its the fans fault if you believe personal responsibility and corruption don't matter. You know who else is responsible? Every doper still allowed to make a penny in this sport, its like hiring a career embezzler to manage your finances, its ridiculous. The stars of cycling were created by drugs and greed, thats not the fans responsibility, its the sports.

 

[BotanyBay]

This is very key ingredient to the mess.

Never have so many people been willing to suspend rational thought to protect a myth. It let the problem grow unchecked for years

I remember that day when Lance got taken out by the musette bag, got up and not only caught up, but rocketed past them. I already knew he was a complete cheating turd then, but I guess I just needed a hero back then.

The Ramones have a great song "I'm looking for... Something to believe in"

Sometimes the riders themselves come to believe they're superhuman too.

 

[BotanyBay]

What an utterly ridiculous concept. The fans have little or no responsibility at all in the mess that is cycling.

Yeah we do. At some point we needed to wake up and realize that guys can't rocket up fifteen mile mountain climbs fifteen percent faster than just a few years before. Not that we had any power in the equation, but we did help enable it by throwing the early nay-Sayers under the bus when we did not like the message.

 

[JRTinMA]

Yeah we do. At some point we needed to wake up and realize that guys can't rocket up fifteen mile mountain climbs fifteen percent faster than just a few years before. Not that we had any power in the equation, but we did help enable it by throwing the early nay-Sayers under the bus when we did not like the message.

Well I will agree to a little responsibility The people tossed under busses were mostly tossed there by the ones failing to keep the greed in check. How much did the average fan really know?

 

[BotanyBay]

Well I will agree to a little responsibility The people tossed under busses were mostly tossed there by the ones failing to keep the greed in check. How much did the average fan really know?

Hard to pin-point where we all crossed the line, but we did cross it.

 

[nevada]

Maybe I was a little naive but I certainly didnt realise the enormity of the problem until Puerto.

 

[BotanyBay]

It's like the wife who unexpectedly catches the hubby cheating. And then she looks back and realizes that she knew all along, yet chose to ignore it. It's common among us humans. We don't like seeing certain realities, so we "don't".

 

[Race Radio]

What an utterly ridiculous concept.

Wrong again

You do not need to look any further then the founder of this site, Bill Mitchell. When all he did was report on the questions the French press were asking about doping he was relentless harassed by loyal Armstrong groupies. He was called at home in Australia all night long and his employeer was besieged by people demanding he be fired. To make the harassment stop he sold the site for almost nothing. It was sold a few years later for $5,000,000

in his parting letter he wrote

I also received a lot of antagonism for daring to have an opinion - mostly from US readers. I could not understand why people (only a small minority), who grew up in the so-called land of freedom were so intent on repressing free speech. After all it was your choice to click the link and there was no charge for doing so. But still I received many threatening and nasty E-mails on a regular basis. My employer (the University) was harassed. And lately these nasty types have been trying to encourage my sponsors to stop supporting the site. I guess these types wear white hoods around the place at times too. It made me understand how McCarthyism thrived in the USA. Lucky I live in a free society I thought.

This same formula was repeated over and over. Anyone who questioned the myth would be subject to insensate harassment from clueless groupies.