Why are derailleur hangers so soft?

[Boeing]

Why in an age of Stiff carbon frames do we have to deal with soft alloy replaceable derailleur hangers? seems bassakwards. Replaceable is good. soft is not

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Yeah, it doesn't make sense at all. I'm sure you noticed at Flanders this year many bikes were equipped with steel hangers. Better and more consistent shifting, and more durable in a crash. The rider or mech can actually bend the hanger back straight if need be when it's steel, I've done it more than once. Can't do that with aluminum.

 

[BrindSurch]

The berlive that its to try stop the frame snapping if there is a mech issue which i guess is reduced if the hanger is soft but i do think they are far to soft now adays

 

[fatsprintking]

If I remember right the first cannondale frames did not have a replaceable hanger and if you bent the integrated one there was a good chance your frame was going to be scrap as you tried to bend it back and it snapped. This is when the replaceable screwed in ones came in.

I think they are soft, to try and avoid the screws pulling through the frame (the hanger will give rather than the screws giving or frame itself bending), as this would also be a major pain in the a___. The steel hangers make sense and there is no doubt they would improve shifting. The amount of loose hangers you see is amazing with a couple of mil play, mixed in with them flexing. The steel hangers are a good idea as long as you are OK with the fact they may lead to some frame damage in a crash. Anyone know who makes em/where you can get them?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Anyone know who makes em/where you can get them?

Strictly custom bits right now. Ironically enough a guy from Wheels Manufacturing is sitting on the other side of my desk now. He's really intrigued about steel replacement hangers now from what I've been telling him went down at Flanders.

 

[Polish]

Derailleur hangers are meant to break away first in a crash / mis shift etc.
To break first, they are made to be the "weakest link"
I guess the second thing to break is the derailleur, third the frame yikes.

I have had a few bikes where the hanger is so flexy, it affected rear shifting.
That sucks.

But what I want to know - why do hangers have to look like ducks or birds or turtles? And why the heck are there so many different shapes fcol!

http://wheelsmfg.com/content/view/740/27/
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[fatsprintking]

I think that hangers were pretty generic before Klien went for the stupid reverse micro drop out design that always just seemed to be a total PITA to me. Anyway in a world where all frames start looking pretty samey, and are often coming out of the same factory, I suppose the hanger becomes a cheap way of creating some differetiation and thats why there are so many of them.

 

[brianf7]

If I remember Klein made a shear bolt for their rear drop outs so you dont crack the frame and smash the mech.
The reverse dropout was suposed to be a faster way of changing the rear wheel ounce you get used to it . But you would always end up with black hands bar tape and a big mess.
I have reverse on my Cervelo time trial bike. pain in the A!!!!

 

[fatsprintking]

Sheer bolts are also a PITA if they break when they get a whack from a wheel.

When the Dura Ace wheels first came out I had a number of times where the low spoke count and "sharp" edged spokes were prone to catchng the edge of the derailier of the bike in front (ususally cause I was on the rivet trying to hold on as best I could over a hill and sitting as close to the wheel as I could. Twice I managed to rip the derailier off the bike in front when the hanger bolt sheared.

Older style wheels used to just bounce off and even Ksyriums, but the dura ace wheels seemed to bite. I felt like an arsehole as I rode past the guy with his derailier flapping around saying "sorry mate".

 

[mattfatcyclist]

Another area we have been fooled on by the big bike makers of the world. My 2009 ridley damoclies shifting sucks in comparison to my steel framed seven. Crash the seven, send back, have new hanger WELDED on. Not an option for the the carbon frame. Yes I can replace the hanger, but shifting will still stink. The only good news is the carbon frame rides stiffer( although not in the BB), and is a WHOLE 4oz. lighter then my steel frame. Makes a huge difference on the climbs!

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Another area we have been fooled on by the big bike makers of the world. My 2009 ridley damoclies shifting sucks in comparison to my steel framed seven. Crash the seven, send back, have new hanger WELDED on. Not an option for the the carbon frame. Yes I can replace the hanger, but shifting will still stink. The only good news is the carbon frame rides stiffer( although not in the BB), and is a WHOLE 4oz. lighter then my steel frame. Makes a huge difference on the climbs!

I've crashed many a steel frame in the past, never had to get a replacement dropout, it's steel, just bent the hanger back.

Sounds like you need your Ridley hanger checked with a DAG. I've ridden a couple Ridley bikes, Damocles and and X-Night, shifting was near perfect.

 

[mattfatcyclist]

Maybe it has nothing to do with the hanger then...It might be the ultegra sl on the seven vs. the latest ultegra on the ridley.. I was more thinking one piece vs. bolt on. I know it's not the spacing on the rear as a swap out the same set of handbuilts()between the two bikes, and have them both dialed for that.

 

[fatsprintking]

Check and make sure that the hanger is screwed in tight. They should have a thread sealer on them, but I have seen a lot of bikes where the actual hanger is rocking in the fram as it needs to be tightened. More common in stiff frames and big riders where I think a combination of vibes and flex seems to allow them to loosen.

 

[usedtobefast]

Strictly custom bits right now. Ironically enough a guy from Wheels Manufacturing is sitting on the other side of my desk now. He's really intrigued about steel replacement hangers now from what I've been telling him went down at Flanders.

get that going, a niche market, but some sales to be made for sure.

 

[fatsprintking]

I reckon that a steel hanger would be really good in a situation where you had a big rear sprocket on the back, and a big jump between teeth numbers in the cogs where you are going to be getting high side loading as the chain ramps up. Good for Audax type bikes.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Maybe it has nothing to do with the hanger then...It might be the ultegra sl on the seven vs. the latest ultegra on the ridley.. I was more thinking one piece vs. bolt on. I know it's not the spacing on the rear as a swap out the same set of handbuilts()between the two bikes, and have them both dialed for that.

I would seriously have a mechanic check that hanger with a DAG, takes 30 sec. There should be no reason the latest version of Ultegra shifts worse than a previous version just because it's on a carbon frame with a replaceable hanger. I've seen much worse designed frame and hangers than what's on your Ridley that I've made to work just fine with a little adjustment using a DAG.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

get that going, a niche market, but some sales to be made for sure.

Sh!t man, I already have enough on my plate. Started seeing the hamster wheel turning in that guys head from Wheels Mfg. that I met with today when I told him about steel hangers at RvV, and probably more races in the future.

All being said that the stock hangers that come on bikes are extremely soft aluminum. The WM hangers are waaay more stiff, better made in USA. Dude brought these hilarious frame decals, red with yellow lettering "CHINESE SH!T SUCKS"

 

[fatsprintking]

I would seriously have a mechanic check that hanger with a DAG, takes 30 sec. There should be no reason the latest version of Ultegra shifts worse than a previous version just because it's on a carbon frame with a replaceable hanger. I've seen much worse designed frame and hangers than what's on your Ridley that I've made to work just fine with a little adjustment using a DAG.

Getting access to a derailier alignment gauge (dag) should certainly be your first port of call if everthing seems tight and in place. If it is shifting badly, then you will perhaps be able to see it visually looks out of line.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Getting access to a derailier alignment gauge (dag) should certainly be your first port of call if everthing seems tight and in place. If it is shifting badly, then you will perhaps be able to see it visually looks out of line.

Yeah, well not everyone has eagle eyes like us. If you're not used to picking up minute details like a slightly off der hanger it's best to just roll into a shop just to make sure. Even slightly off hangers are difficult to detect just by looking at it, unless you stick a DAG in it will shift terribly.

p.s. I read your blog post about "Steel???" Sounds like someone who hasn't had the opportunity to ride a modern steel race frame yet. Let's save that for another thread though.

 

[James Huang]

mattfatcyclist:

Barring a tweaked hanger, check the amount of friction in the rear derailleur housing. That extra bend at the lever needed to tuck the housing under the tape absolutely adds friction relative to the old Ultegra SL and as Shimano hasn't changed the leverage ratios between the 6600 and 6700 generations, the new stuff is more sensitive to that sort of thing. If it's anything short of silky smooth, you'd be best served by pulling the cable and housing (yes, including removing the bar tape on that side) and being ultra-diligent about contamination, how the housing is cut, cable quality, lube, housing caps, etc.

 

[Boeing]

I don't remember posting this topic but the replies are good. I don't remember calling anyone a fred either.... must have posted both the same night

carry on

 

[Slumdog-Zomergem]

I've got the Wheels Manu. wall poster the amount of rear hangers out there is crazy . That Israeli firm Hilo (sic) seem to pump out a few. Am wondering how difficult it is for these sort of guys to tool up for steel ? I hate it when i watch the derailleur move slightly when you clamp up the wheel tight.

 

[Black Dog]

There is a lot of opinion on how a thick peace of solid aluminum flexes under the small load of a derailleur shift. There is no data however to show that it actually affects shifting performance. There are many factors that effect shifting and comparing a steel bike that shifts well to a carbon bike that does not is a non-starter argument if you blame the hanger - as if it is the only thing that is different between the two bikes. Try and flex a hanger with the derailleur removed and the wheel clamped in, using the same force that a shift produces. Good luck measuring an amount of deflection that is not a tiny fraction of the slop in the derailleur or the play in the top pulley. I have to call BS on this one.

It is very smart to have it fail and not destroy the derailleur or the frame. Using steel in a pro race makes sense from a failure point of view. If an Al hanger breaks or bends, new bike needed. If a steel hanger does not and the frame and derailleur survive then no new bike needed and rider goes on. Unless you have a couple dozen spare frames lying around why risk it unless you are on the front of PR or Flanders?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Believe the problem people are finding is that the stock hangers that come on most new carbon frames are extremely soft aluminum, and yes, meant to break 1st before a der or frame in the event of a crash. Wheels Manufacturing makes some really beefy hangers that are really solid and impervious to bending out of shape just from normal wear and tear, but will break away if involved in a crash. I've had to realign more slightly bent hangers than you would care to know, and not from crashes, simply because the stock ones are so soft.

 

[Boeing]

I'm with you RDV; Are we really having to explain that the purpose of a replaceable hanger is to break away to protect the frame? Really?

derailleur hanger dot come makes them all out of this butter soft 6500 type alloy. I am still steaming about this bend. it didnt come from a fall or drop. nothing kills the ride vibe more than a skipping chain

they are soft enough to bend back to salvage the ride.

RDV, question. this is on my 29 er set up 1x9 with a mid rear xtr cage and a 12-36. Is it possible that the small cage and 36 torque it out a bit and bend it?

Frame is straight I know that much.. Chain line is centered. I was thinking of removing BB spacers and bringing the front ring closer to the frame and chain line closer to the lower gears.

Chain length?

longer cage DR slaps a lot of chain

thoughts?