wimbledon

[McLovin]

damn, look at the match between mahut and isner . they are 57-56 in 5th after 9 1/2 hours. so it's possible, maybe clean.

 

[Barrus]

They are both dying, McEnroe is really concerned about the health of both players

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

They are both dying, McEnroe is really concerned about the health of both players

If it was Murray and Nadal they'd be fine....

 

[ttrider]

lol i think for health and safety reasons that should have ended sooner

 

[The Hitch]

perhaps the title of this thread should be tennis. Im really interested whether there is doping in what one might call the celebrity sports- football and tennis, where success guarantees life of luxury and fame .

Looking at the posture of the players at the end of days play i cant help but think back to alpine mountain stages day after day and the teqniques used for recovery. Will these tennis players be taking some epo today?

I heard that operation puerto had a lot of tennis players names listed and ive heard people suggest that nadal looked awfully old for a 19 year old when he burst on the scene. Also there are people testing positive in the lower ranks (perhaps less protected ranks) for peds. Add to that the fact that in tennis the doping tests and controls are far weaker than in this thing of ours.
Surely they must be doping no?

 

[buckwheat]

perhaps the title of this thread should be tennis. Im really interested whether there is doping in what one might call the celebrity sports- football and tennis, where success guarantees life of luxury and fame .

Looking at the posture of the players at the end of days play i cant help but think back to alpine mountain stages day after day and the teqniques used for recovery. Will these tennis players be taking some epo today?

I heard that operation puerto had a lot of tennis players names listed and ive heard people suggest that nadal looked awfully old for a 19 year old when he burst on the scene. Also there are people testing positive in the lower ranks (perhaps less protected ranks) for peds. Add to that the fact that in tennis the doping tests and controls are far weaker than in this thing of ours.
Surely they must be doping no?

If they do, they'll lose. The drug doesn't work that way. The body has to adjust to the introduction of the drug before it can be effective.

 

[The Hitch]

fair point, but dont you think they might already be under some doping programme?

 

[Ibanez]

I remember in this years French Open final between Nadal and Soderling, the commentator noted without a hint of irony after a long rally of Nadals ability to seem completely unfazed whilst his opponent would be gasping for breath. He was talking about what a mental blow it must be for Soderling to be racing round the court fighting for air after a hard rally to look across and see Nadal barely breaking a sweat despite covering the same distances. Mental blow? I'll say!

In cycling, such superiority results in questions. In Tennis, nada.

 

[cychosis]

"Century", a new term in tennis.

 

[Cloxxki]

Interesting about tennis players (for the ladies laso) is that they often take off their shirts to put on a dry one. they are really not THAT "dry". Nadal may be an exception to the rule.
Since maybe male and female racket sports players are kind of soft bodied, I've been telling friends for years that they are an inefficient way to try and lose weight. The start-stop action doesn't seem to tickle the body to become all too lean. People doing 15min daily ground workouts can have way more defined muscles.

In my younger years I played a lot of tennis. I rarely hit a ball, but I'd at least run to try. Two 5-setters would not be rare for an afternoon's session with a friend. There is a lot of recovery, and the amount of meters covered are less impressive than the amount of starts, most rather explosive in nature.

 

[ttrider]

im a Nadal fan and everything but come on! Is it any coincidence high profile spanish players names were found in puerto and he has a superior muscle size and fitness to everyone else, and he now complains about drug tests being to intrusive.

If Nadal was a cyclist he would be Contador with a bit of Ricco and Ruben Plaza rolled in

 

[galaxy1]

guys, tennis is a skill game. anyone who plays it for a living will be fit enough to play all day.

in the case of this match, the coordination really suffers (you can see that on the highlights reel) - the only thing they are putting big effort into is the monster serves.

doing some 'roids might be a shortcut to strength and stimulants might improve concentration in matches you don't care about, but ultimately there is no compelling reason for someone like Nadal, Federer, or Murray to risk doping in the way that you mean.

casting unfounded aspersions on tennis players in the hope of making cycling look relatively ok is a complete waste of time.

 

[R.0.t.O]

guys, tennis is a skill game. anyone who plays it for a living will be fit enough to play all day.

in the case of this match, the coordination really suffers (you can see that on the highlights reel) - the only thing they are putting big effort into is the monster serves.

doing some 'roids might be a shortcut to strength and stimulants might improve concentration in matches you don't care about, but ultimately there is no compelling reason for someone like Nadal, Federer, or Murray to risk doping in the way that you mean.

casting unfounded aspersions on tennis players in the hope of making cycling look relatively ok is a complete waste of time.

+1 to it being a waste of time. wgaf about tennis? let them sort their own mess out.

but you're telling me that increasing endurance via PEDs to allow you to train all day without so much fatigue wouldn't make you a better player? Or getting to the ball that fraction earlier every shot? Or still being full of running at 5all in the fifth wouldn't help your game? Murray for one went in a few months from being on his knees when matches went to a 4th or 5th to having some of the best endurance on the circuit.

 

[Brad Lamb]

guys, tennis is a skill game. anyone who plays it for a living will be fit enough to play all day.

in the case of this match, the coordination really suffers (you can see that on the highlights reel) - the only thing they are putting big effort into is the monster serves.

doing some 'roids might be a shortcut to strength and stimulants might improve concentration in matches you don't care about, but ultimately there is no compelling reason for someone like Nadal, Federer, or Murray to risk doping in the way that you mean.

casting unfounded aspersions on tennis players in the hope of making cycling look relatively ok is a complete waste of time.

So, Eufemiano Fuentes was really making it all up when he confirmed that tennis players and footballers were also on his blood doping and r-EPO client list?

And the French daily Le Monde were hopelessly wrong when naming Nadal, along with Real Madrid and Barcelona football players in documents they had in their possession, back in December 2006?

 

[Leopejo]

guys, tennis is a skill game. anyone who plays it for a living will be fit enough to play all day.

Maybe among amateurs.

 

[BullsFan22]

Interesting about tennis players (for the ladies laso) is that they often take off their shirts to put on a dry one. they are really not THAT "dry". Nadal may be an exception to the rule.
Since maybe male and female racket sports players are kind of soft bodied, I've been telling friends for years that they are an inefficient way to try and lose weight. The start-stop action doesn't seem to tickle the body to become all too lean. People doing 15min daily ground workouts can have way more defined muscles.

In my younger years I played a lot of tennis. I rarely hit a ball, but I'd at least run to try. Two 5-setters would not be rare for an afternoon's session with a friend. There is a lot of recovery, and the amount of meters covered are less impressive than the amount of starts, most rather explosive in nature.

Boy, you are everywhere aren't you Cloxxki!?! Ski websites, cyclingwebsites. You are unflappable! LOL

 

[Big GMaC]

Back to wimbledon, the game has ended.

John Isner finally beat Nicolas Mahut

6-4; 3-6; 6-7; 7-6; 70-68

And is now into the second round of Wimbledon, just as others are into the 3rd / 4th rounds.

And they both have doubles games scheduled for today

 

[luckyboy]

perhaps the title of this thread should be tennis. Im really interested whether there is doping in what one might call the celebrity sports- football and tennis, where success guarantees life of luxury and fame.

I really can't see how there are any top-level sports like this where doping isn't involved. Especially with the amount of money up for grabs.

There was some report by UK Sport about 5 years ago that showed that, for the 5000+ professional footballers in England, there were something like 1200 tests carried out. The UK athletics board administered 500 tests on the 250 athletes they control over the same period.

And there was the Juventus team-wide doping scandal - http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/27/sports/27iht-juve_ed3_.html

 

[The Hitch]

wgaf about tennis? let them sort their own mess out.

Dont agree with that. Cycling has suffered a lot in terms of viewer numbers because it is seen as the dope sport. Sports like tennis and football are in countries like my one considered more important than life and death. When federer has kids its breaking news on cnn. I see footballers and tennis players and usain bolt in every advert on tv, posters of them everywhere i go. If, as there is very strong evidence, doping is prevalent in these spors, why should they be get away with it while millions are ignoring this thing of ours because they think it is the sport where people dope.


oh and evidence that this match WONT be remembered- Mahut was just shown playing a doubles match with Arnaud Clement. Clement is the man who together with the magician santoro previously held the record for longest match ever. You think they would have mentioned that his partner was the guy who held the previous record. Nope.

 

[BikeCentric]

Dont agree with that. Cycling has suffered a lot in terms of viewer numbers because it is seen as the dope sport. Sports like tennis and football are in countries like my one considered more important than life and death. When federer has kids its breaking news on cnn. I see footballers and tennis players and usain bolt in every advert on tv, posters of them everywhere i go. If, as there is very strong evidence, doping is prevalent in these spors, why should they be get away with it while millions are ignoring this thing of ours because they think it is the sport where people dope.


oh and evidence that this match WONT be remembered- Mahut was just shown playing a doubles match with Arnaud Clement. Clement is the man who together with the magician santoro previously held the record for longest match ever. You think they would have mentioned that his partner was the guy who held the previous record. Nope.

These are good questions that you raise regarding a double standard but the sad fact is that cycling still likely IS the "doping sport" despite the valid argument that it brings negative attention upon itself via a greater testing regimen than other sports.

I say this because the recent Landis allegations that were corroborated by Ashenden show the testing to be a joke (6 hour window to catch an EPO injector) yet we still have riders testing positive for EPO all the time, and of course this is just one drug in around 30 that pro cyclists use according to Jesus Manzano and Bernard Kohl. Not to mention we constantly have police raids which other sports do not have. Not to mention we still have riders dieing young and getting heart attacks (Kirchen) which you very rarely see in other major sports.

Cycling very much still has a bigger problem than other major sports and it's not going away untill the UCI does.

 

[The Hitch]

These are good questions that you raise regarding a double standard but the sad fact is that cycling still likely IS the "doping sport" despite the valid argument that it brings negative attention upon itself via a greater testing regimen than other sports.

I say this because the recent Landis allegations that were corroborated by Ashenden show the testing to be a joke (6 hour window to catch an EPO injector) yet we still have riders testing positive for EPO all the time, and of course this is just one drug in around 30 that pro cyclists use according to Jesus Manzano and Bernard Kohl. Not to mention we constantly have police raids which other sports do not have. Not to mention we still have riders dieing young and getting heart attacks (Kirchen) which you very rarely see in other major sports.

Cycling very much still has a bigger problem than other major sports and it's not going away untill the UCI does.

I think you do see deaths in other sports, just not at the highest level. weve had pantani, true, but otherwise the pros arent dropping dead either and deaths are at the lower levels too (we dont know if kirchens heart attack is because of doping)

and further to the point about this thing of ours being the only sport where doping is fought, do any other sports have blood passport testing? Is there any other way to test for blood transfusions? I suppose there is- investigating people like fuentes and ferrari, but wait, cycling is the only sport to have done anything ofthe sort. We know, (evidence made by other posters above) that blood transfusions do occur in other sports.

Also one method of doping which wouldnt be as advantageos in endurance cycling as it is in other sports is using steroids to build up muscles from a young age. The current best footballer in the world moved to northen spain at the age of 13 to recieve "hormone treatment", funded by the club which now makes millions off him.
Many said nadal looked more like a 30 year old than an 18 year old when he turned pro. He runs very powerfully around the court and throughout his career has had knee problems due to this superhuman running. For this there is also no test but its certianly a form of doping.

As for the weakness of the UCI tests, didnt the Landis letters say that Armstrong had to change his doping methods in around 2002 because the tests for epo had advanced? and while it is very unlikely to catch anyone who is doping, now and again people like frei fall because there are so many tests that they slip up.
All the while in other sports the testing is a joke and no one will ever get caught.

 

[The Hitch]

I really can't see how there are any top-level sports like this where doping isn't involved. Especially with the amount of money up for grabs.

There was some report by UK Sport about 5 years ago that showed that, for the 5000+ professional footballers in England, there were something like 1200 tests carried out. The UK athletics board administered 500 tests on the 250 athletes they control over the same period.

And there was the Juventus team-wide doping scandal - http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/27/sports/27iht-juve_ed3_.html

WOOO those are very interesting and shocking stats. How can people even get caught.

Amazing isnt it. Juventus a team with a hundred years of history is a million times more famous than a temporary cycling team called festina. Yet the festina affair, with the cycling team getting caught up in a doping scandal, is a million times more famous than when the century old lady gets caught up in a doping scandal.

Do you think the doping continues at events like this world cup, where players temporarily leave their bases and play for different teams?

 

[spectacle]

damn, look at the match between mahut and isner . they are 57-56 in 5th after 9 1/2 hours. so it's possible, maybe clean.

it would be unlikely for isner and mahut to be on doping programs; mahut especially. not because doping doesn't happen in the ATP, but because it would be very hard for players outside of the top ten to coordinate and fund a doping program for themselves.

pro-tennis is very different from cycling and football, and most other sports really, because each player has to pay for everything themselves (including the airfare and accommodations of anyone in their entourage). and they only earn what they win. and they usually play all year long with no breaks between tournaments for topping off and "recharging." and tournaments are scheduled so that players are typically flying to a different country every few weeks, which would entail a lot of risk going through customs in places as diverse as doha and singapore, every few days, with a small pharmacy and bags of blood in your bag

take mahut, he's only ranked 148 and has made about $87,000 this year. that seems like a lot, but factor in all the airfare and lodging for himself and his coach and his physio (if he has one--isner doesn't; he had to borrow one last night).

isner is currently ranked 19th, which would make doping more feasible, since he's made about $683,000 so far this year, but still--it's not cheap to fly around the world and pay for accommodations in places like wimbeldon every two weeks.

i actually think that something happened this year because the results are lot more random this year than they've been in the past few--maybe there was a gentlemen's agreement or something, but to me it has looked a lot cleaner than anytime in the past 10 years. or i guess it could have just gotten a whole lot dirty this year, evening the playing field....

but then again, i've never really been able to decide how much of an edge i think doping provides someone in tennis. i think in most instances a clean player with superior skill and talent will beat a doped inferior player. no offense, but it's takes a lot more skill to hit a ball traveling 130 miles per hour with precision than to ride a bike up a hill.

certainly, not being tired can help someone keep from losing touch due to exhaustion, but it can't magically bestow it if you don't already have it. moreover, the "yips" and "choking" plays a big part in most matches--EPO can't quiet the stress and fear that a player has serving love-40, a game down, two sets down. what was amazing about the mahut/isner match was that they were hitting aces and winners at will for so long--hitting aces and winners with insane placement for so long. even if he's doped to the gills, mahut is a god for having managed to handle the pressure of serving from behind for 67 games before he finally blinked. that was incredible.

it seems likely that doping in tennis would be the most helpful on the clay courts, and if you notice, clay court grinders make up the majority of players who've ever been busted over the years (like canas) or implicated (like nadal/operation puerto).

but on a fast grass court, between two players whose strongest part of their game is their serve, like the match between mahut and isner, the fatigue mostly comes from the mental strain, not the actual play--mahut and isner didn't really have to run all that much in their match, because they weren't relying on return of serve (like a nadal or an aggasi--another one who has always been rumored to have been a doper). plus isner has such a huge reach, from being 6'9" tall, that on most of the points he only had to moved a step or two in any direction.

i hate doping. so i hope this post doesn't sound apologetic or naive--i would not be shocked to learn that doping in rampant in tennis--i'd just be really interested in how they managed it and what sort of advantage it gives players of differing skill levels against each other. i have no doubt it has made a huge difference between players of equal talent, at least on the slower surfaces. and that is surely bad enough.

 

[The Hitch]

it would be very hard for players outside of the top ten to coordinate and fund a doping program for themselves.

i'd just be really interested in how they managed it and what sort of advantage it gives players of differing skill levels against each other. .

But at the lower challenger levels there have been players caught. these people are far less likely to afford it than mahut or isner.

And doping in tennis wouldnt just be epo, but also muscle building steroids from a young age, which as i mentioned above could possibly have been used by nadal. Also peds will strenghten the serve (a lot) and the best cure for pressure in a tennis match is to have a strong first serve which gets you free points.

And while in tennis skill and precision are obviously more important, people like nadal and federer plan on going deep into the second week of grand slams. When you play a one off match, or even 2 matches in a few days, it probably wouldnt tire them out. But but a best of 5 set match every 2 days for 2 weeks, now endurance really does become a factor, and drugs which help with endurance, become all the more valueable

After the 5 hour AO semi against Verdasco, people who saw Nadal said he couldnt walk the next day yet alone play federer in the final. Yet the next day he was magically back to full fitness, with the final turning out to be ANOTHER marathon match, and Nadals power game winning him the 5th set and the championship, with no signs of being tired.

The in awe commentators simply dismissed this as nadal training harder than everyone else. Now where have i heard dopers use this line before?

 

[curious]

iv infusions

I loved watching this match. They were both asleep on their feet at the end of the second day. I was shocked when Tim Henman replied when asked what they would do to recover form for next days- IV fluids and iv feeding automatic response withou a blink.
I think in last year I have noted a sudden death, admission to ITU with dehydration and now Kim Kirchen s cardiac arrest.
Although I am anti doping shouldn t we allow iv infusions to swiftly correct elecrolyte imbalance as serious illness in these 3 cyclists could have been explained by severe electrolyte imbalances correctable with iv infusions.
You all think they are cheating any way so why not let the doctors salvage them more safely.