Paris - Roubaix 2024, one day monument, April 7

[Extinction]

The. Knowledge. Is. The. Technological. Developments!

Now they have the knowledge of how to make proper helmets.

No, it is not. "Knowing" how to make things is not knowledge of things. They are different matters, just as knowledge is different from technology.

 

[Lequack]

 

[Extinction]

Let's go back and look at the history of Arenberg in Paris-Roubaix:

Introduced in 1968, the passage was closed from 1974 to 1983 by the Office National des Fôrets. Until 1998 the entry to the Arenberg pavé was slightly downhill, leading to a sprint for best position. The route was reversed in 1999 to reduce the speed. This was as a result of Johan Museeuw's crash in 1998 as World Cup leader, which resulted in gangrene so severe that amputation of his leg was considered.

In 2005 the Trouée d'Arenberg was left out, organisers saying conditions had deteriorated beyond safety limits as abandoned mines had caused sections to subside.

The regional and local councils spent €250,000 on adding 50 cm to restore the original width of three metres and the race continued using it. The Italian rider Filippo Pozzato said after trying the road after its repairs:

It's the true definition of hell. It's very dangerous, especially in the first kilometre when we enter it at more than 60kh. It's unbelievable. The bike goes in all directions. It will be a real spectacle but I don't know if it's really necessary to impose it on us.

In 2001 a French rider, Philippe Gaumont, broke his femur after falling at the start of the Trouée when leading the peloton. He said:

What I went through, only I will ever know. My knee cap completely turned to the right, a ball of blood forming on my leg and the bone that broke, without being able to move my body. And the pain, a pain that I wouldn't wish on anyone. The surgeon placed a big support [un gros matériel] in my leg, because the bone had moved so much. Breaking a femur is always serious in itself but an open break in an athlete of high level going flat out, that tears the muscles. At 180 beats [a minute of the heart], there was a colossal amount of blood being pumped, which meant my leg was full of blood. I'm just grateful that the artery was untouched.

Video of Gaumont:

View: https://youtu.be/RamvZ6o9EQE?t=40

It's possible to feel grief for the fallen riders and still think eliminating Arenberg would diminish the race. The problem in 2001 was the mud, but that's a constant for all pavé sectors in such conditions. The most spectacular PR recently was the 2021 edition ridden under atrocious weather and, fortunately, passed without serious incident IIRC.

 

[RedheadDane]

No, it is not. Knowing how to make things is not knowledge of things. They are different matters, just as knowledge is different from technology.

(No need for quotation marks.) It is knowing/having the knowledge of how to make things.
Of course, you need knowledge in order to make technological developments.

The most spectacular PR recently was the 2020 edition in atrocious weather conditions and, fortunately, passed without serious incident IIRC.

I'm gonna assume that was a typo.

 

[Extinction]

(No need for quotation marks.) It is knowing/having the knowledge of how to make things.
Of course, you need knowledge in order to make technological developments.



I'm gonna assume that was a typo.

It's a matter of semantics, which here makes an important distinction, and a priori versus a posteriori epistemologies in regards to what true knowledge is.

At any rate, I meant the 2021 PR Colbrelli won.

 

[glassmoon]

Just gather the goats who have been grazing the cobbles before the entrance of the forest. The riders would slow down to check them out. Problem solved.



Seriously, I think a chicane is a good idea and I don't see the problem with introducing it four days in advance. It's not like suddenly removing or adding a climb to a stage.

or a plank

 

[Axel Hangleck]

This stuff is destroying the Grand National too.

And in the process made the race faster, because the jumps are no longer the test they were..........Go and look at Becher's......
It's now just another staying H'Cap Chase.........

 

[Extinction]

I c

I can't see how anyone can think this chicane is a good idea. It comes immediately after the tracks and just before entering the pavé sector. The first turn is too dangerous, because you'll have to take the tracks obliquely, the second and third too sharp and too soon, which, particularly for the second, makes reducing speed potentially leading to a cluster-fook.

PS Of course, it all depends on the bunch and how they ride it, but at first sight it looks really dangerous. Imagine a chicane like that at the Tour at 100 meters to go on a sprinters's stage. Oh my God.

 

[Barkintheeye]

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.388...m268_Z96na1bTDHg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Looks supertight plus several obstacles that needs to be covered up in protective materials.

How will this new obstacle affect the run in to this?

 

[Eyeballs Out]

The history of Arenberg in Paris-Roubaix since I've been watching it (15 years or so) is that apart from it being a great spectacle most years nothing much of any note has happened. You get a few of the top riders putting on a show of strength, they get to the end, turn left and realise there are 90+ kms to go. Then there's a general regroupment and it's a good time for me to get a spot of lunch. Considering that it is the secteur that has most difficult cobbles and there is still usually a largish peloton when they get there it doesn't seem to have been as dangerous as you would expect compared with other secteurs.

 

[Berflamand]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but from what I gather on Twitter this was the preferred option among riders (or at least the majority of them).
I don't doubt a number of riders are against the chicane. Yet complaining about it on social media after the association representing you demanded and achieved a route change seems rather puerile to me.

Visma seem the most vocal about it. I've already seen Richard Plugge, Van Baarle and Jorgenson applauding/defending the introduction of the chicane.

 

[Volderke]

In order not to mix things up:

1. Is Arenberg more dangerous than it should be: a firm yes. Riders also think the same way.
2. Is Arenberg to be skipped? A firm no. Nobody wants it skipped.
3. Can the safety situation be improved? Yes, but there is no clear / best solution. Proposed solutions: decreasing speed through a chicane, making 2 turns in the village to end up either with a left or right turn going on the cobbles, or going the other way around. None of these are perfect
4. Will the current measure (a chicane) work / decrease the risks? We'll see on Sunday. I think riders aren't that stupid: they know a 3 minute 400 watt block of racing is coming with Arenberg, so they will slow down and take the chicane at very low speed and use it as a moment to rest just before a big explosion of power. On the other hand, you only need one kamikaze rider trying to move up / squeeze his way in looking for a better position and they could all slide / being held up in that funnel. I still think the chicane itself is too narrow / badly designed but it's the best place for it.

 

[carolina]

Wouldn't be better if they added a lot curves in the village, before the train tracks? That would stretch the peloton a bit before Arenberg.

 

[Barkintheeye]

Wouldn't be better if they added a lot curves in the village, before the train tracks? That would stretch the peloton a bit before Arenberg.

Yes, why not?

 

[Volderke]

Wouldn't be better if they added a lot curves in the village, before the train tracks? That would stretch the peloton a bit before Arenberg.

There aren't too many roads in the village that lead to the secteur and those that do, are either backroads like this one: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.385...l9OjFJ9JX-mznuaQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu or they simply link back to the main road too soon so the main goal of reducing the speed won't be reached.

Also the one possible road linking to the boulevard des mineurs d'arenberg (the one with the chicane) is the Rue des Raimes, but it isn't really a road:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[Extinction]

In order not to mix things up:

1. Is Arenberg more dangerous than it should be: a firm yes. Riders also think the same way.
2. Is Arenberg to be skipped? A firm no. Nobody wants it skipped.
3. Can the safety situation be improved? Yes, but there is no clear / best solution. Proposed solutions: decreasing speed through a chicane, making 2 turns in the village to end up either with a left or right turn going on the cobbles, or going the other way around. None of these are perfect
4. Will the current measure (a chicane) work / decrease the risks? We'll see on Sunday. I think riders aren't that stupid: they know a 3 minute 400 watt block of racing is coming with Arenberg, so they will slow down and take the chicane at very low speed and use it as a moment to rest just before a big explosion of power. On the other hand, you only need one kamikaze rider trying to move up / squeeze his way in looking for a better position and they could all slide / being held up in that funnel. I still think the chicane itself is too narrow / badly designed but it's the best place for it.

A reasonable assessment, even if I'm not sure I agree with point 4. It seems more likely to me that riders will just take the same risk to enter the chicane in the first positions that they would have taken going into Arenberg straight on. And if there is a big crash in the chicane who behind it can avoid going down? It will be like a 🎳 effect.

 

[carolina]

There aren't too many roads in the village that lead to the secteur and those that do, are either backroads like this one: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.385...l9OjFJ9JX-mznuaQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu or they simply link back to the main road too soon so the main goal of reducing the speed won't be reached.

Also the one possible road linking to the boulevard des mineurs d'arenberg (the one with the chicane) is the Rue des Raimes, but it isn't really a road:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

I didn't know the roads were unusable. That really makes it quite dificult to find a proper solution.

 

[Volderke]

I didn't know the roads were unusable. That really makes it quite dificult to find a proper solution.

Probably the best one would be the parallel road to the West, but it also doesn't seem to be part of the public road network.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

But Arenberg isn't in that network either (opened once a year, in essence it's a nature reserve), so maybe they could open the barrier, repave it or at least clean it, and it could become something like this:

74-60 D313 to Dolande Bernard Maintenance

www.google.com

 

[carolina]

That one looks like the best solution, but it would need more then 4 days notice.

 

[Volderke]

That one looks like the best solution, but it would need more then 4 days notice.

indeed, as the sortie is a bit narrow and messy now:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[Armchair cyclist]

In Adam Hansen' swords : The riders I couldn't reach out to, I spoke to their DSs when I was in Flanders and asked them to speak to their riders. Normally, we have channels to 1 rider in each team. I didn't use this communication because it only involved the riders at that race, and we wanted as little people to know about this until it's official with ASO

Why the secrecy? Why reveal it so late? Surely having had discussion earlier (is the most likely time for dialogue to have started not immediately after the finish line last year when dozens of riders are saying "this is crazy"?) would have avoided it being so polemical now, and avoided the embarrassment of the number one favourite expressing disbelief at the organisers a few days before.

Given that they have left it until the eleventh hour, this might be the best possible solution (leaving aside debate as to whether it needed a solution): if it had been in public discussion for months then sorting the northern end of the Rue de Croy, or the closed 100 metres or so of Rue de Raismes, might have been plausible.


And as a minor question: why could Hansen not have trusted the designated CPA link rider in each team to raise the discussion with those likely to be in this race at team level? What is the point of a delegate if you don't delegate to him?

 

[Armchair cyclist]

I can confidently say that I have spent more time studying far distant dead-end lanes in the last 24 hours as in the other nn years of my life in total.

 

[Volderke]

Why reveal it so late?

I'm only guessing, but the crash in DDV could have been the catalyst to try and implement some last-minute measures.

 

[Armchair cyclist]

I'm only guessing, but the crash in DDV could have been the catalyst to try and implement some last-minute measures.

But, barring the context of a bike race, no shared features with this issue at all. Indeed, in as much as that was caused by the scramble to get to the front before a slow turn going into a potential decisive feature of the race, this is magnifying that danger.

And if riders are only talking about this after DDV, rather than after PR last year, is the Trouée really the issue at hand?

 

[Volderke]

But, barring the context of a bike race, no shared features with this issue at all. Indeed, in as much as that was caused by the scramble to get to the front before a slow turn going into a potential decisive feature of the race, this is magnifying that danger.

And if riders are only talking about this after DDV, rather than after PR last year, is the Trouée really the issue at hand?

I think Adam Hansen has more intensively consulted riders because of incidents like DDV, and asked them what they felt was worth evaluating in the next few races. Honestly just guessing, I should ask some pro riders when I see them.
In any way it all seems haphazard.