Crashes, what can be done?

[samhocking]

A page that says "it's everybody's responsibility except the teams, even though most of the recent major crashes have been more the result of team instructions and rider behaviours than anything else".

And a page that says "race organisers shouldn't get to keep money, it should be given to the teams" at the same time as saying "race organisers need to spend more money so that our riders don't have to do crazy things like read the road". It is true that races depend on riders for their value proposition, but it's equally true that without races to compete in, the riders hold no value.

But if they drive all organisers outside of ASO, RCS and Flanders Classics to the wall, they can implement their "all money to the teams" system and sell the calendar to the oil-rich dictatorships they want to and not have to worry about racing on roads that have hazards such as fans on them. It's all part of the propaganda offensive for the New Cycling, the same revolution that has been mooted several times before. Manoeuvring the pieces into place.

I don't think Plugge or Ratcliffe are particularly using this as argument for onecycling, after all Jumbo's Jaap Van Hulten is now heading up SafeR for the teams and there's not an angle of onecycling to it afaikt? End of the day cycling exists with a model where you can potentially have no top rider racing the top event or at it's worse a situation where a team like Jumbo might not return a single penny of investment if their top riders are all in hospital before they hit Le Tour. As Plugge said this week "You have to protect your people but also think about the business. This is harmful to our sport".
I'm not sure you could blame Plugge's teams for what has happened to Wout and Vingo etc. I mean, sure, the riders are instructed to race at the front but even that is as much a team instruction about safety as it is about winning strategy. One crash could theoretically cause Jumbo to fold because only the riders give ROI to the sponsor, not the race organisers, not TV and not the UCI.

 

[Camino]

I raced old school, 5 cog freewheels, friction down tube shifters, caliper brakes, etc. smaller amateur fields. Since then have watched pro races on internet for many years. Observations: too many riders in a race for modern roads with all the road furniture; disc brakes are more dangerous, wheel changes take longer, resulting in more risks to re-join; many innovations in wheels, tires, etc are not safe; electronic shifting is less reliable, resulting in more mechanical issues than in the old days. I think teams ought to be smaller, 7 for GTs, 6 for lesser races. Flat finishes should have universal criteria such as last km straight, standard barriers sloping back, no extended feet.

 

[Cookster15]

I feel more comfortable descending on the hoods, because my torso-armreach, with frame geometry, isn't so great. What should I do? Go against a natural inclination? When I listen to the same old advice, I feel less in control. I've tried to go into the drops, but then, invariably, return to the hoods.🤹

Hmmm, maybe you feel that way, I certainly don't - I think you would be in the minority. I much prefer to descend on the drops - not just more aero but more stable - lower center of gravity. A lower lower center of gravity feels more stable and in control.

But as this discussion has been prompted by the Itzulia crash, we should focus on what actually caused that crash?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't think Plugge or Ratcliffe are particularly using this as argument for onecycling, after all Jumbo's Jaap Van Hulten is now heading up SafeR for the teams and there's not an angle of onecycling to it afaikt? End of the day cycling exists with a model where you can potentially have no top rider racing the top event or at it's worse a situation where a team like Jumbo might not return a single penny of investment if their top riders are all in hospital before they hit Le Tour. As Plugge said this week "You have to protect your people but also think about the business. This is harmful to our sport".
I'm not sure you could blame Plugge's teams for what has happened to Wout and Vingo etc. I mean, sure, the riders are instructed to race at the front but even that is as much a team instruction about safety as it is about winning strategy. One crash could theoretically cause Jumbo to fold because only the riders give ROI to the sponsor, not the race organisers, not TV and not the UCI.

I wasn't saying that Plugge's teams were responsible for the crashes. I was just saying that these incidents were more the product of rider error and tactical demands than organiser deficiencies, but the answer proposed from that side is always to expect organisers to foot the bill and serve as the fall guy.

 

[Rob5091]

It could be turning into one of those years ... Ladies Amstel Gold Race -
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/amstel-gold-race-we/2024/result/live
Politie Eenheid Limburg POL_Limburg
“A police motorcyclist was injured this morning around 11 a.m. in a collision with a car on the Bergseweg in #Voerendaal while supervising the Amstel Gold Race. He was taken to hospital by ambulance. The Bergseweg has been closed off for an investigation by TTOV.”

 

[Extinction]

Hmmm, maybe you feel that way, I certainly don't - I think you would be in the minority. I much prefer to descend on the drops - not just more aero but more stable - lower center of gravity. A lower lower center of gravity feels more stable and in control.

But as this discussion has been prompted by the Itzulia crash, we should focus on what actually caused that crash?

As I said, my arm reach isn't so great, for which when I'm down in the drops I feel unnaturally stretched, that's it really. Consequently, from very early on I got used to descending on the hoods and almost never ride the drops even on the flats.

 

[AmRacer]

As I said, my arm reach isn't so great, for which when I'm down in the drops I feel unnaturally stretched, that's it really. Consequently, from very early on I got used to descending on the hoods and almost never ride the drops even on the flats.

Do a Froome, adjust your saddle height. 😁

 

[Red Rick]

Mollema with an interesting take, saying descents are much crazier now tham in the past because many riders have much bigger big gears now so they can pedal descents up to 80kph unlike in the past

That said, his suggestion of gear restrictions seemed super unrealistic to me

 

[Netserk]

I think it’s one of the more realistic proposals. Easy to implement, inexpensive and limited damage to any particular stakeholder. If you can regulate bike weight, you can regulate gear ratios - and they already do the latter for juniors.

Unlike electronic gears and disc brakes, bigger gears are not what sells to the public.

 

[Samamba]

Mollema with an interesting take, saying descents are much crazier now tham in the past because many riders have much bigger big gears now so they can pedal descents up to 80kph unlike in the past

That said, his suggestion of gear restrictions seemed super unrealistic to me

A lot of riders have said this the past few weeks. You don't even start spinning going 90km/u some say, that's pretty insane.

I don't think it's that unrealistic tho? Doesn't make it less entertaining and big gears don't sell like Netserk said.

and they already do the latter for juniors

That changed no? Or at least in international races, some countries still have limits (Belgium does for example).

 

[Red Rick]

I think it’s one of the more realistic proposals. Easy to implement, inexpensive and limited damage to any particular stakeholder. If you can regulate bike weight, you can regulate gear ratios - and they already do the latter for juniors.

Unlike electronic gears and disc brakes, bigger gears are not what sells to the public.

I think it would affect sprints too much to restrict it

 

[Lequack]

Well sprints have also become more dangerous.

 

[Netserk]

I think it would affect sprints too much to restrict it

I think a 54/11 or 53/11 limit would have negligible impact on sprints.

That changed no? Or at least in international races, some countries still have limits (Belgium does for example).

Possibly, I don't know. But I know that it at least has been regulated in the past.

 

[Extinction]

I think it would affect sprints too much to restrict it

Maybe impliment gear restrictions only in races with much high speed descending? As far as crashing and mass sprints are concerned, the riders need to do some soul searching. In the past when there was no space to pass, a rider backed off. The problem today is nobody backs off, because the culture of the sport (which reflects wider modernity) has made them lose their minds.

 

[kingjr]

Maybe impliment gear restrictions only in races with much high speed descending? As far as crashing and mass sprints are concerned, the riders need to do some soul searching. In the past when there was no space to pass, a rider backed off. The problem today is nobody backs off, because the culture of the sport (which reflects wider modernity) has made them lose their minds.

Bunch sprints 30 years ago were by and large much wilder than they are today.

 

[Nick2413]

Gear ratios would be a good start but what % of crashes involve situations where gears would’ve been maxed out? They need another way of slowing down the riders or thinning them out.

 

[Extinction]

Bunch sprints 30 years ago were by and large much wilder than they are today.

I don't think so, but if they were then today's riders have lost skills, because they are going down more frequently. Still I think today's sprinters have more pressure on them and so lose their minds more frequently.

 

[kingjr]

I don't think so, but if they were then today's riders have lost skills, because they are going down more frequently. Still I think today's sprinters have more pressure on them and so lose their minds more frequently.

I think today we have more bunch sprints.

 

[Extinction]

I think today we have more bunch sprints.

Could be, with more calendar races and greater control of breaks, but you didn't have certain maneuvers. The sprints were "dirtier" in the past, because the were less severe penalizations, but it kept them honest. Today it seems everybody thinks he's entitled to a certain line, because the monitoring is quite tight, but that leads to hubris and not infrequently stupidity.

 

[Rob5091]

So Jaap Van Hulten crashed out, I see ... back to Visma full-time, I suppose, after he's recuperated.

 

[Rob5091]

Luis Angel Maté has his 2 cents worth ...
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racin...ing-more-dangerous-nowadays-we-asked-the-pros
At this year's Tour of the Alps, Luis Angel Maté (Euskaltel-Euskadi), a rider with over 15 years of experience, said he believes cycling is "more dangerous nowadays".

"The bikes are quicker, the roads are better, but, above all, cycling is a reflection of society," the 40-year-old told Cycling Weekly. "Today's society moves very fast. Everybody wants to win, more than anything else. There are lots of sponsors, and teams need to win to justify those big investments. This creates a lot of competitiveness. I think there's more competitiveness today than when I started many years ago."

For the Spaniard, one of the peloton's statesmen, the recent crashes should prompt riders to reflect on how they race and "learn to use [their] brakes".

"We're the first ones responsible," he said. "If a bend can be taken at 40km/h, we shouldn't try to go into it at 50km/h.

"There's no point in going flat-out with 100km to go. We need to show some good sense and realise that it's not worth winning at any price."

 

[Gratemans]

Bunch sprints 30 years ago were by and large much wilder than they are today.

To be fair, that's solely on account of Abdushaparov being there back then.

 

[Sciatic]

Luis Angel Maté has his 2 cents worth ...
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racin...ing-more-dangerous-nowadays-we-asked-the-pros
At this year's Tour of the Alps, Luis Angel Maté (Euskaltel-Euskadi), a rider with over 15 years of experience, said he believes cycling is "more dangerous nowadays".

"The bikes are quicker, the roads are better, but, above all, cycling is a reflection of society," the 40-year-old told Cycling Weekly. "Today's society moves very fast. Everybody wants to win, more than anything else. There are lots of sponsors, and teams need to win to justify those big investments. This creates a lot of competitiveness. I think there's more competitiveness today than when I started many years ago."

For the Spaniard, one of the peloton's statesmen, the recent crashes should prompt riders to reflect on how they race and "learn to use [their] brakes".

"We're the first ones responsible," he said. "If a bend can be taken at 40km/h, we shouldn't try to go into it at 50km/h.

"There's no point in going flat-out with 100km to go. We need to show some good sense and realise that it's not worth winning at any price."

That would be sensible if riders took that to heart. But the DS’s role in this type of dangerous riding is huge— since they’re urging them on in their earpieces. That makes it more difficult for individual riders (particularly if they’re not stars) to decide to change their riding behavior.

 

[Izzyeviel]

During the first half of a race, when the weather turns like it did today, they should stop the race for five minutes so riders can safely put on wet weather kit. (or take it off). Just seems a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Netserk]

During the first half of a race, when the weather turns like it did today, they should stop the race for five minutes so riders can safely put on wet weather kit. (or take it off). Just seems a disaster waiting to happen.

Road racing is an outdoor sport. Race on the track if you don't like that.