1998 Tour

[ingsve]

I just watched highlights of the 1998 Tour for the first time in 12 years and one thought I had when watching it related to Jan Ullrichs performance. With all that was going on in the Tour that year could is be possible that Ullrich lost the Tour because he was riding clean? Either because they were careful because of the busts or simply because they couldn't get a boost in the last week because of the scrutiny they were under?

 

[Oldman]

I just watched highlights of the 1998 Tour for the first time in 12 years and one thought I had when watching it related to Jan Ullrichs performance. With all that was going on in the Tour that year could is be possible that Ullrich lost the Tour because he was riding clean? Either because they were careful because of the busts or simply because they couldn't get a boost in the last week because of the scrutiny they were under?

Ullrich's team would have been one of the most watched, no doubt about it. Considering the gendarmes hung on to French citizens until they talked it's unlikely anyone wanted to chance it. That doesn't mean some riders didn't jack during the race but the "ususal suspects", especially former winners would be under scrutiny.

 

[Kerbdog]

Where did you get the highlights by the way? Im trying to get a copy of the race but cant find anything. Im Irish & i was at the first couple of stages & was so proud at the time having the Tour in my country. I recorded them live on VHS as they were live on Eurosport but my Mother accidentally threw them out !!!! AAAAARRGHHHHHH!!!!!!

 

[Barrus]

Where did you get the highlights by the way? Im trying to get a copy of the race but cant find anything. Im Irish & i was at the first couple of stages & was so proud at the time having the Tour in my country. I recorded them live on VHS as they were live on Eurosport but my Mother accidentally threw them out !!!! AAAAARRGHHHHHH!!!!!!

I think they are on cyclingtorrents.nl, just like most other footage of races

 

[hrotha]

My impression was that most riders didn't dope during that Tour after the **** hit the fan. On the other hand, EPO was a lot more convenient to use (and conceal) than transfusions, so who knows.

Either way, Ullrich seemed to recover just fine on the Madeleine.

 

[roundabout]

Looked like he forgot to eat. Also the weather was really lousy the day he lost 9 minutes and Jan seemingly never liked the rain. OTOH he was with Julich etc over the Galibier and that group lost another 3 minutes from there to the end so it would have been very close.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Where did you get the highlights by the way? Im trying to get a copy of the race but cant find anything. Im Irish & i was at the first couple of stages & was so proud at the time having the Tour in my country. I recorded them live on VHS as they were live on Eurosport but my Mother accidentally threw them out !!!! AAAAARRGHHHHHH!!!!!!

I would like to get a DVD highlights package of this tour as well. The battle between Ullrich and Pantani seemed interesting. '97 is another one I'd like to see a lot of.

 

[Monte Zoncolon]

Here is an old link, that shows the stage profiles, and the entire results of the 1998 Tour De France:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/tdf98.html#riders


Stages 10, 11, 15, 16 + 17 are the major mountain stages.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Looked like he forgot to eat. Also the weather was really lousy the day he lost 9 minutes and Jan seemingly never liked the rain. OTOH he was with Julich etc over the Galibier and that group lost another 3 minutes from there to the end so it would have been very close.

That finally sounds correct. Ullrich lost the Tour at that one epic stage and, like always, the T-Mobile express was doped to the gills.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

That finally sounds correct. Ullrich lost the Tour at that one epic stage and, like always, the T-Mobile express was doped to the gills.

yes, but they weren't on Dr ferrari's plan, and weren't paying off the UCI to get advance notice of testing, or telling the testers to come back at a more "convenient" time etc. I don't think they could also arrange for a rival to get a positive test either.

T-Mobile just doped like all the others. They weren't sociopaths hellbent on owning the sport to dictate everything in their own interests, while marketing themselves to the ignorant and inadequate through unlimited dishonesty.

T-Mobile was pragmatic doping - everyone is doing it, because it is possible anbd desirable. We will do it too, under medical supervision, to ensure it is safe. noone was pressured to either, unlike The Sociopath's USPS train of 80kg classics specialists shelling climbers out the back of the lead group uphill.

You're even more of a plonker than i already thought you were if you can't see the difference between what The Sociopath did, and what T-Mobile did.

Ulrich is also deep down a nice guy and thoroughly decent human being. Your hero is a pathological liar with zero ability to empathize or even consider the needs of others. I doubt he loves anyone, and i doubt any of the unfortunate people close to him love him very much either.

 

[halamala]

Here is an old link, that shows the stage profiles, and the entire results of the 1998 Tour De France:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/tdf98.html#riders


Stages 10, 11, 15, 16 + 17 are the major mountain stages.

Stage 11 , Plateau de Beille

Pantani : VAM 1724 m/h, 6.19 w/kg
Ullrich : VAM 1661 m/h, 5.96 w/kg

Stage 15 , Les Deux Alpes

Pantani : VAM 1699 m/h, 6.32 w/kg
Ullrich : VAM 1334 m/h, 4.96 w/kg

Stage 16 , Col de la Madeleine

Pantani and Ullrich : VAM 1727 m/h, 6.26 w/kg

 

[Cobblestoned]

yes, but they weren't on Dr ferrari's plan, and weren't paying off the UCI to get advance notice of testing, or telling the testers to come back at a more "convenient" time etc. I don't think they could also arrange for a rival to get a positive test either.

T-Mobile just doped like all the others. They weren't sociopaths hellbent on owning the sport to dictate everything in their own interests, while marketing themselves to the ignorant and inadequate through unlimited dishonesty.

T-Mobile was pragmatic doping - everyone is doing it, because it is possible anbd desirable. We will do it too, under medical supervision, to ensure it is safe. noone was pressured to either, unlike The Sociopath's USPS train of 80kg classics specialists shelling climbers out the back of the lead group uphill.

You're even more of a plonker than i already thought you were if you can't see the difference between what The Sociopath did, and what T-Mobile did.

Ulrich is also deep down a nice guy and thoroughly decent human being. Your hero is a pathological liar with zero ability to empathize or even consider the needs of others. I doubt he loves anyone, and i doubt any of the unfortunate people close to him love him very much either.

Just to remember you that we are talking about 1998, which at first has nothing to to with Lance.
And your answer to the OPs question, whether they rode clean is also "No". Just to get this straight.

Don't you think you make it too easy for yourself ?
A little bit onesided and influenced by all that hate.
Did you even notice that you describe T-Mobile and Freiburg as underprivileged and goodminded amateurs in doping ? lol
BTW: Ulle is my hero, but I always respected Lance. Sounds strange, hmmm ?
Come over it.

If you are lucky with that and if helps you, just keep your oppinion. It's nothing more than that.
Not one critical word about der gute Jan. Where is that where you live ? Behind the moon ? Jan and others were also customers of the big dopingring.
Cecchini>later Fuentes and bloodpumper Choina, who are tightly connected to Ferrari.

I know, now the Lance-the-exclusive-only-one-good-responder and Lance-just-doped-more-and-exclusive storys come on table again. lol
Better save your energy for gullible newbies and learning about T-Mobile and Ullrich.

 

[Monte Zoncolon]

With all that was going on in the Tour that year could is be possible that Ullrich lost the Tour because he was riding clean?

Jan Ullrich lost the 1998 Tour, during the 15 th stage to Les Deux Alpes, when he finished 8.57 minutes behind eventual stage winner Marco Pantani. Ullrich suffered that day due to atrocious weather conditions. As did may others. Was he riding clean ? Extremely doubtful

Here is a YouTube Video featuring the climax of stage 15;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkAlb8A5B2E&feature=related

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

Jan Ullrich lost the 1998 Tour, during the 15 th stage to Les Deux Alpes, when he finished 8.57 minutes behind eventual stage winner Marco Pantani. Ullrich suffered that day due to atrocious weather conditions. As did may others. Was he riding clean ? Extremely doubtful

Here is a YouTube Video featuring the climax of stage 15;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkAlb8A5B2E&feature=related

Looking at the video, Bjarne Riis is struggling to stay with Ule. So, the whole team was struggling that day. That makes it seem doping related. Then, the question would be whether it was that they were riding clean or if it was bad blood.

 

[LeakyBoat]

Ullrich suffered that day due to atrocious weather conditions.

As roundabout said earlier, Jan didn't like the rain.

 

[luckyboy]

lol Julich

Think it was a combination of weather/mentally cracked/hits the wall. Can't see how the dope stopped working for one day.

 

[Magnus]

Looking at the video, Bjarne Riis is struggling to stay with Ule. So, the whole team was struggling that day. That makes it seem doping related. Then, the question would be whether it was that they were riding clean or if it was bad blood.

IIRC Ullrich was chasing alone on a big part of Galibier before Riis and Bölts caught op on the climb to Les Deux Alpes and by then it was Ullrich that was struggling.

He lost because of a hunger flat he had because he forgot to eat/drink when chasing alone.

Why would they be blood doping?

Riis flushed his EPO-stash when the raids started. I suppose most other riders did the same.

 

[Polish]

That finally sounds correct. Ullrich lost the Tour at that one epic stage and, like always, the T-Mobile express was doped to the gills.

+1

1998 was an epic TdF! Up there with 89 and 03....

Here is a poster I have of Jan's Last Ever Moments in Yellow
along with my Fausto BobbleHead Action Figure:

That epic vintage TdF was peppered with a plethora of rider protests too.
Here are a couple young (back then) Aussie Speedster protestors:

 

[ingsve]

I think they are on cyclingtorrents.nl, just like most other footage of races

Yep, cyclingtorrents.nl

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

T-Mobile was pragmatic doping - everyone is doing it, because it is possible and desirable. We will do it too, under medical supervision, to ensure it is safe.

Ulrich is also deep down a nice guy...

Agree with everything you wrote there. Probably true about their doping program.

Your hero is a pathological liar with zero ability to empathize...

But I'm going to stop you right there. We do NOT need this to turn into another LA thread.

I don't think Jan, or anyone at the top was clean. Cleaner perhaps, after the raids, but clean, no.

Anyone recall after Willy was caught Suisse physician Gérard Gremion claimed at the time that 99% of the peloton was doped leading into the Tour? He was probably right. The raids stopped some of it, but many of those teams simply dropped out entirely. Marco was doped, T-Mob was doped. Maybe less after the raids, but to think Jan was somehow clean doesn't float to me. Granted, he could have been cleaner than Marco, same with Bobby Julich, sure. And that may have been a factor, along with weather, stress, hunger, etc. But just because they are nice guys doesn't mean they were clean (witness TH), not that anyone is saying that. Just a reflection on Mongol's post.

 

[Neworld]

IIRC Ullrich was chasing alone on a big part of Galibier before Riis and Bölts caught op on the climb to Les Deux Alpes and by then it was Ullrich that was struggling.

He lost because of a hunger flat he had because he forgot to eat/drink when chasing alone.

Why would they be blood doping?

Riis flushed his EPO-stash when the raids started. I suppose most other riders did the same.

That may be true.

I haven't watched the 1998 Tour in a while but for some reason I remember that Ullrich flatted at the bottom of the climb up the Galib and not one Telekom rider waited to help him. I remember him rocketting up to catch up to the lead group with Pantani...then Pantani, his ner 50+ % HCT and cocaine shelled the group for good.

Am I off in that recollection. Damn, now I have to re-watch that stage.

Thank you for that last comparison of Pantani and Ullrichs VAMs. Love those numbers.

Does anyone know Ullrichs VO2Max? Was it close to Big Mig (88)?

NW

 

[ghostofjoy]

That may be true.

I haven't watched the 1998 Tour in a while but for some reason I remember that Ullrich flatted at the bottom of the climb up the Galib and not one Telekom rider waited to help him. I remember him rocketting up to catch up to the lead group with Pantani...then Pantani, his ner 50+ % HCT and cocaine shelled the group for good.

Am I off in that recollection. Damn, now I have to re-watch that stage.

you're only slightly off. ullrich had two poorly timed flats during that tour, but the one you're thinking of came on a different stage, at the bottom of the final climb. it seems cruel that the cycling gods never really blessed ullrich with the luck that armstrong had.

dug around youtube and found some footage of the stage, which has the added bonus of watching manuel beltran attacking first, and then promptly blowing up as pantani counters and ullrich drags the rest of the group past him. Around 2:40 is where telekom flies by everyone to get ullrich back to the lead group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGoXMpSrrSY

 

[Neworld]

Thanks for the youtube link.

When Jan punctured it didn't look to me like anyone was 'soft-pedalling' it to all for him, with the yellow jersey to get back into the lead group. It looked like Jan was maxed out, used up his team in the first 2 Kms or so, and then when he got to the back of the peleton the attacks started. Beltran then pantani. I guess you could argue that they waited until Jan got back in and then attacked, but they certainly didn't slow up. Not like Jan in 2003.

Not much etiquette that day!

NW

 

[blackcat]

That may be true.

I haven't watched the 1998 Tour in a while but for some reason I remember that Ullrich flatted at the bottom of the climb up the Galib and not one Telekom rider waited to help him. I remember him rocketting up to catch up to the lead group with Pantani...then Pantani, his ner 50+ % HCT and cocaine shelled the group for good.

Am I off in that recollection. Damn, now I have to re-watch that stage.

Thank you for that last comparison of Pantani and Ullrichs VAMs. Love those numbers.

Does anyone know Ullrichs VO2Max? Was it close to Big Mig (88)?

NW

Udo Bolts said Ullrich could not climb before he got the EPO shots from Freiburg

 

[Race Radio]

snip:

Did Jan have access to experimental drugs?