2001 Tour of Switzerland?

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Mar 19, 2009
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From webvan's post in the other thread...here is the letter to Herman from the UCI lawyer:

http://facts4lance.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/letter-to-mr-herman.pdf

Notice that the letter specifically talks about adverse analytical findings. An AAF only happens after the A&B samples are tested or the athlete waives his or her right to a B sample testing. Thus, that letter doesn't directly address the issue. If Lance had an A sample determination of EPO use covered up then there would have been no B sample follow-up, so no possibility of an AAF. Seems like a sleight of hand by the UCI lawyer.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Moving this post to this thread as seems more on topic here
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=532137&postcount=272

theswordsman, this swiss positive was discussed in one of the threads about a year ago. iirc, myself and several others advanced an idea that the alleged positive was an inconclusive a-sample test.

the 60 minutes seems to confirm the idea when they referred to the usada letter pointing to a suspicious test consistent with epo. the inconclusive or suspicious simply means (i am speculating here) that the scientific threshold for a positive (80% bap at that time) may not have been reached or just barely crossed. (for a backgrounder recall this was the first year the epo test was introduced and there was no wada technical guidance yet obligatory now. only 3 labs then could test for epo and the general mood was that of caution as with anything brand new).

so, what we are likely seeing is the uci spin. of cause they did not have the record of a full aaf becase the a-sample was hushed.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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Epicycle said:
From webvan's post in the other thread...here is the letter to Herman from the UCI lawyer:

http://facts4lance.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/letter-to-mr-herman.pdf

Notice that the letter specifically talks about adverse analytical findings. An AAF only happens after the A&B samples are tested or the athlete waives his or her right to a B sample testing. Thus, that letter doesn't directly address the issue. If Lance had an A sample determination of EPO use covered up then there would have been no B sample follow-up, so no possibility of an AAF. Seems like a sleight of hand by the UCI lawyer.
Nice points.

One also needs to consider the history of the EPO test. First used properly in 2000 the initial protocol used blood and urine testing and it wasn't until 2003 that WADA went ahead and approved the urine test on it's own. The question then arises what were the nature of LA's 2001 samples. It wouldn't be difficult to envisage a scenario where a lab carrying out a fairly new test could be pressured into being more conservative in their interpretation. The real question to me is: was LAs Swiss sample blood/urine or urine only. If it was urine only I can easily see a circumstance were that could be made to "go away".
 
Sep 25, 2009
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in 2001 epo test was urine only. there is no mystery.

the first blood epo test (in the sporting content) was not available untill operation puerto follow up by a madrid wada lab.

as i pointed out in a post above, the 'inconclusive/suspicious' was most likely referring to the "percent bap" found in the urine sample. at the time it was 80% and required matching 'the amount of ink' in one image vs another - not a very difficult issue to blame on a subjective interpretation.

later revisions of the epo test refined this criteria. but then it was fuzzy and likely exploited by the uci.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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python said:
the first blood epo test (in the sporting content) was not available untill operation puerto follow up by a madrid wada lab.
FYI

"A test for EPO was introduced at the 2000 Summer Olympic Games in
Sydney (Australia). The test, validated by the International Olympic
Committee (IOC), was based on the blood and urine matrix. A blood
screening was performed first, and a urine test was then used to confirm
possible use of EPO." - WADA "EPO detection"

WADA sanctioned EPO tests in their first iteration used the Parisotto developed indirect test for blood (Haematologica (2000) 85:564 ) in conjunction with the Lasne developed urine test (Nature (2000) 405:635) this was until 2003 when the urine test was considered sufficient.
 
Aug 30, 2010
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There is no way Lance tested positive in 2001. Everyone who said he did is just jealous and a hater and totally not credible source... says it on lance's website... must be true! /s

I'm looking forward to when Lance admits to doping and his attorney consequently dismisses Lance as a non-credible source.

Also what is the legal implications for the lab who did the test. If it comes out that they covered up for the UCI will they go out of business? Will this lead to a situation whereby labs are legally obliged to report positives to the police rather than the UCI in order to create an information flow which would minimise the opportunity for corruption?

Whatever happens from here on in the rules will be different.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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rata de sentina said:
no need to.

a stand alone
epo test was introduced in cycling in 2001. since we are taliking about cycling in 2001, the sidney olimpic methodology for blood doping in 2000 has little to do with the subject.

again, the 2001 test for epo (the subject of the alleged cover up) was a stand alone URINE test and did not require blood screening.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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to add some more food for though regarding the alledged uci-swiss lab cover up:

- lausanne laboratory has special links to the uci going back to the 90s.

no current wada lab (previously known as ioc-accredited) has the history of cooperation with the uci that goes as wide and deep as the lausanne lab has/had. it's the main (until 2years ago - the exclusive) lab that conducted ALL blood work for the uci events. all health blood tests were also done in lausanne. it's an exclusive lab for analysis of biopassport etc etc. the uci has been generous to to contract the lab and was basically responsible for huge chunk of it's business....

- the lab director in 2001 (as was pointed out earlier by epicycle) was laurent rivier. he later 'switched sides' and occasionally was an expert witness for athletes accused of doping. the latest case is pelli's

- martial saugy (the current director) was a deputy/assistant lab director in 2001 and must be more than well informed about the affair.

disclaimer: all this is not to doubt the swiss lab integrity but to illustrate that the uci had special relations with the lab unlike with the other labs.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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I actually think that they only introduced the urine test at the 2000 olympics (possibly because EPO could only be detected if it had been used in the past 3 days) The off model test developed by Michael Ashenden at the Australian Institute of Sport and others was significantly more accurate and detected EPO use in the previous month
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2004/s1072143.htm
 
Sep 25, 2009
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again, the history of the urine epo test is well documented. the test evolution (from it's inception by the lndd to it's application in the 2000 olympics along with off-score blood screening - to it's present-day version) is described by various authors in excruciating detail.

but it has little to do with 2001 and cycling because it was decided to use urine only epo test for both screening and confirmation. it was deemed reliable enough and cycling became the first sport (well, perhaps with the exception of xc skiing) to try as a stand-alone test.

the long-term detection capability of the blood off-score is now used for targeting (in stead of a screening tests as in sydney) as part of athlete blood passport.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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python said:
no need to.

a stand alone
epo test was introduced in cycling in 2001. since we are taliking about cycling in 2001, the sidney olimpic methodology for blood doping in 2000 has little to do with the subject.

again, the 2001 test for epo (the subject of the alleged cover up) was a stand alone URINE test and did not require blood screening.

You are argueing at cross-purposes and please try and put a bit of effort into comprehension. While you are undoubtedly knowledgeable and I value most of your comments on this forum, I have noticed that you are not overly fond of providing supporting evidence and your adopted air of infallibility is a bit misplaced.

The urine test was available in 2000 as well. Was the stand alone urine test sanctioned by WADA for EPO detection in 2001? If so can you please provide some evidence for this since it would contradict the WADA documentation.

If not, did the UCI accept the legitimacy of non-WADA sanctioned EPO tests in 2001?
 
Jul 28, 2009
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python said:
no need to.

a stand alone
epo test was introduced in cycling in 2001. since we are taliking about cycling in 2001, the sidney olimpic methodology for blood doping in 2000 has little to do with the subject.

again, the 2001 test for epo (the subject of the alleged cover up) was a stand alone URINE test and did not require blood screening.

You are argueing at cross-purposes and please try and put a bit of effort into comprehension. While you are undoubtedly knowledgeable and I value most of your comments on this forum, I have noticed that you are not overly fond of providing supporting evidence and your adopted air of infallibility is a bit misplaced.

The urine test was available in 2000 as well. Was the stand alone urine test sanctioned by WADA for EPO detection in 2001? If so can you please provide some evidence for this since it would contradict the WADA documentation.

If not, did the UCI accept the legitimacy of non-WADA sanctioned EPO tests in 2001?
 
Sep 25, 2009
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rata de sentina said:
<snip> Was the stand alone urine test sanctioned by WADA for EPO detection in 2001? If so can you please provide some evidence for this since it would contradict the WADA documentation.

If not, did the UCI accept the legitimacy of non-WADA sanctioned EPO tests in 2001?
i think you misunderstood what i said. the quote above alone shows that you may need to re-look at your sources....because the uci did not join wada until much later (2005?) and, most importantly, as i mentioned earlier, the first wada documentation related to standardizing epo testing is dated to 2004

iow, wada could not have endorsed the uci testing procedures in 2001. the first wada document related to epo testing was td2004epo

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/td2004epo_en.pdf

i am not arguing but trying to provide a clearer picture.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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python said:
i am not arguing but trying to provide a clearer picture.

Fair enough. I am familiar with the wada document you cite although I beleive it is actually a refinement of an earlier test protocol. The WADA executive committee voted on June 7 2003 to adopt the urine test (I am not sure of the actual implementation date) although they continued to recommend it be used in conjunction with the indirect blood test. If as you say the UCI was not bound by WADA at the time then it is unlikely that LA and JB could use that as an argument.

Still these were the early days of the urine test. How long had Lausanne been performing it? Didn't the % basic bands wander about a bit in the early days? As I understand it 76% was used initially with 80% or even 86% later before the % criteria was abandoned altogether. I think a lot of athletes got away earlier on because of these criteria. Maybe LA and JB 'wobbled' them over the line.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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rata de sentina said:
Fair enough.
no prob. a lot of the information i provided earlier is from my memory banks. i often use 'iirc', to stress the fact. my sole intention was an early attempt to prevent the discussion to flow away from those issues that in my opinion are bs'ed by armstrong and his lawyers.
I am familiar with the wada document you cite although I beleive it is actually a refinement of an earlier test protocol. The WADA executive committee voted on June 7 2003 to adopt the urine test (I am not sure of the actual implementation date) although they continued to recommend it be used in conjunction with the indirect blood test.
that's possible but i think uci was not obliged in 2001 to follow wada methodology or recommendations. in fact, the 1st epo case in cycling immediately ran into problems (hamburger)...and incidentally it happened in the same year, 2001, and was done by the same swiss lab. later, i will try to find the source for my memory and, if you are interested, i will pm you.

If as you say the UCI was not bound by WADA at the time then it is unlikely that LA and JB could use that as an argument.
that's what immediately set off my bs alarms by lances team.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Cobblestoned said:
:rolleyes:


McQuaid presented a paper trail of letters from the Paris and Lausanne anti-doping labs, WADA and the Tour de Suisse organisers that he claims showed that Armstrong did not test positive for EPO in 2001 and so could never have attempted to bribe the UCI.

"The UCI take seriously the accusation that the UCI took a bribe to hide the positive test of Lance Armstrong in 2001," McQuaid said.

"We've contacted in recent days the labs involved for testing for EPO at that time. I have statement here from those labs that support what I am about to say. The letters will also soon be published on the UCI website in a sign of transparency.

"First the letter from the Paris lab, that is under the AFLD. They had three positives for EPO in the UCI account between 2001 and 2003. Two in 2001 and one in 2003. All the reports were sent to the UCI in 2001 and 2002 and 2003 were also sent CPLD and also sent to the International Olympic Committee. In relation to Lausanne, there were 18 positive tests for EPO for the UCI controlled by this lab between 2001 and 2003: six in 2001, four in 2002 and eight in 2003. All analysis were sent to IOC and Swiss Olympic.

I also have a letter from WADA that states from January 2004, every positive result for UCI also went to the WADA. I also have a report from the Tour de Suisse from 2001 which states that there was no doping case in 2001."


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-acknowledges-accepting-armstrong-donation-a-mistake

Someone with open eyes will have noticed that this clarification came too fast for a lie. And it wouldn't make any sense actually not to have alll these documents.
Now dottore will come again and ask for the documentation, and I will tell him again that this is an ongoing investigation (USADA) and perhaps because of that the documents are not online yet.

Nice anticipation move there - as you have been asked already, what USADA investigation in to the UCI are you on about??

Funny that this investigation did not stop the lies4lance site just posting them - pretty amazing that Pat gave a press conference in May quoting figures that he didn't get until June/July.

And of course his numbers are wrong.
 
@ Epicycle and Python, thanks for the information.

I remember the first EPO test being based on urine only but it had a very short window of detection like somebody else mentioned here (~3 days). So at the time Armstrong was doing EPO freely most likely. Then it had to switch gears to blood doping quickly. Maybe reduce the doses for EPO since he already learnt how to beat the test.
 
Two key points here, it seems to me. Python suggests this was probably an A sample that was covered up, so of course processing would never get to the AAF stage. Rata notes that determining whether an EPO test is positive is very subjective—it’s arguably as much art as science. And back then, when the urine test was in its infancy, even more so.

But consider Rata’s “wobble” scenario a little more closely. How and why did LA get notified in the first place? It seems to me he only would have been notified if the sample had been judged positive. It might have been a borderline positive, a close thing, but at the end of the day, a sample has to be determined positive or negative. The lab doesn’t determine a “not sure” (unless the test was messed up a la Heras). At least, that’s the way it works now.

So I assume it was determined a positive, someone decoded the number, and at that point someone knew it was LA’s sample. I can't imagine getting to the decoding stage if the sample was not determined a genuine positive. I’m not sure who knows what at this stage—maybe Python can help here—but it seems to me that the person who first knows the identity of the rider would not know anything other than the sample was positive. IOW, s/he would not know if it was a borderline positive, a barely positive, or whatever. Only that word came from the lab that it was positive.

This is important, it seems to me, because it implies that when LA was invited to have a meeting with the UCI, the subject of the meeting could not have been “we are not sure if this sample is positive or negative”. It had to be simply “this sample is positive”. Period. Maybe the UCI official, wanting to get LA off, make a deal with him, whatever the motivation was, looked at the data, talked to the lab, learned that the positive was borderline, and so was able to rationalize in his own mind that it was not a positive. I can easily see that happening. But it’s pretty clear the meeting never would have occurred if it hadn’t been a genuine positive--one that would have nailed any other rider--and if LA had not been involved.

Incidentally, slightly off topic, but what does it say about LA that he would tell Tyler it was “taken care of”? More and more, I think of master criminals who aren’t satisfied with getting away with murder (literally), but have to brag about it, have to tell others about it. They want the world to know how smart they are. You would think if you got away with something like this, the last thing in the world you would want to do is bring others into the secret. Yet apparently LA did.

I don’t think I appreciated until Tyler’s testimony just what an iron grip omerta had/has on riders. LA has known for years that many riders could implicate him, that he had an extremely damaging secret that was in fact well known to maybe a dozen or more other people, yet he not only did not seem worried at all about that, but even added to the evidence they could implicate him on. Presumably it would have been hard to dope without other team members knowing about it. But he didn’t have to tell anyone about this meeting.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Merckx index said:
Two key points here, it seems to me. Python suggests this was probably an A sample that was covered up, so of course processing would never get to the AAF stage. Rata notes that determining whether an EPO test is positive is very subjective—it’s arguably as much art as science. And back then, when the urine test was in its infancy, even more so.

But consider Rata’s “wobble” scenario a little more closely. How and why did LA get notified in the first place? It seems to me he only would have been notified if the sample had been judged positive. It might have been a borderline positive, a close thing, but at the end of the day, a sample has to be determined positive or negative. The lab doesn’t determine a “not sure” (unless the test was messed up a la Heras). At least, that’s the way it works now.

So I assume it was determined a positive, someone decoded the number, and at that point someone knew it was LA’s sample. I can't imagine getting to the decoding stage if the sample was not determined a genuine positive. I’m not sure who knows what at this stage—maybe Python can help here—but it seems to me that the person who first knows the identity of the rider would not know anything other than the sample was positive. IOW, s/he would not know if it was a borderline positive, a barely positive, or whatever. Only that word came from the lab that it was positive.

This is important, it seems to me, because it implies that when LA was invited to have a meeting with the UCI, the subject of the meeting could not have been “we are not sure if this sample is positive or negative”. It had to be simply “this sample is positive”. Period. Maybe the UCI official, wanting to get LA off, make a deal with him, whatever the motivation was, looked at the data, talked to the lab, learned that the positive was borderline, and so was able to rationalize in his own mind that it was not a positive. I can easily see that happening. But it’s pretty clear the meeting never would have occurred if it hadn’t been a genuine positive--one that would have nailed any other rider--and if LA had not been involved.

Incidentally, slightly off topic, but what does it say about LA that he would tell Tyler it was “taken care of”? More and more, I think of master criminals who aren’t satisfied with getting away with murder (literally), but have to brag about it, have to tell others about it. They want the world to know how smart they are. You would think if you got away with something like this, the last thing in the world you would want to do is bring others into the secret. Yet apparently LA did.

I don’t think I appreciated until Tyler’s testimony just what an iron grip omerta had/has on riders. LA has known for years that many riders could implicate him, that he had an extremely damaging secret that was in fact well known to maybe a dozen or more other people, yet he not only did not seem worried at all about that, but even added to the evidence they could implicate him on. Presumably it would have been hard to dope without other team members knowing about it. But he didn’t have to tell anyone about this meeting.

Correct - it would have to be a positive A sample.

The timeline is interesting here (& backs up the claims).
2 riders who went positive (A samples) during the Tour of Romandie (8th -13th May) their positives were announced publicly on 1st June.

If a rider returned a positive at Suisse (19th-28th June) it would have been announced in early/mid July during the Tour (7-28 July)- and Hamilton was part of the USPS team there.

Right after the Tour LA broke from his normal routine of either returning straight to the US (and milk the talk-shows) or do a load of lucrative criteriums.

Instead he did just one race after the Tour, in Lausanne - home of the testing lab and UCI at the time. The following day Armstrong was back in the US.

Even after the letters from the labs - there is still the possibility that there was a positive A sample and when identified the B sample was either lost or perhaps accidentally frozen or something to damage its integrity - which of course ties in with the 'suspicious' A sample mentioned last night.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Bavarianrider said:
So Jan is the legimit winner of 2001 one. We always knew it.
Depends on one's definition of legitimate. To be honest, knowing what we know now, I don't consider Ullrich's wins to be any more legitimate than Armstrong's, and I was always a huge fan of Ullrich's.

It's tough being a cycling fan these days.
 
Mar 8, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Correct - it would have to be a positive A sample.

The timeline is interesting here (& backs up the claims).
2 riders who went positive (A samples) during the Tour of Romandie (8th -13th May) their positives were announced publicly on 1st June.

If a rider returned a positive at Suisse (19th-28th June) it would have been announced in early/mid July during the Tour (7-28 July)- and Hamilton was part of the USPS team there.

Right after the Tour LA broke from his normal routine of either returning straight to the US (and milk the talk-shows) or do a load of lucrative criteriums.

Instead he did just one race after the Tour,
in Lausanne - home of the testing lab and UCI at the time. The following day Armstrong was back in the US.

Even after the letters from the labs - there is still the possibility that there was a positive A sample and when identified the B sample was either lost or perhaps accidentally frozen or something to damage its integrity - which of course ties in with the 'suspicious' A sample mentioned last night.

It only took me 2 clicks to see that Lance was there at the Travers Lausanne in 1999, too.
Where did you copy your text from ? From your lies-vs-lance website ?

Of course, thats just anticipating and a sidenote to your great post.
I guess you will find a way to wind out of that in perfect eel-style.
You set the standards and own the one and only correct definition about what "normal routine" means, to built your "case".
But one would think that it was no coincidence that you just didn't mention 1999 Lausanne attendance.

Looking forward to THE matching 1999 joke. I'll gladly leave it to you. :D