If some posters here consider Nibali was carsucking, which apparently is worse than wheelsucking, how come he wasn't even penalized? Can somebody explain what's the procedure and who is taking the decision?
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Difficult to say rider of the day, Huzarski combative and a fantastic piece of athleticism, Van Summeren seemed to pull the bunch quite well late on, Nibali possibly another after his troubles and Costa using his head over muscle.
I go Huzarski as best rider.
I go Huzarski as best rider.
briztoon
BANNED
DenisMenchov said:
Why?
If a nation doesn't have the team to dominate and control the race, then you look for other ways to win.
Seriously, if it had come to a bunch sprint in the last 200 metres, would you be disappointed if Sagan had won even though the Slovakians had done nothing to animate the race.
Seriously there are people here with some silly views of what makes a worthy winner of a race.
Don't get me wrong here. I like strong riders, Tom Boonen is one of my favourites and his 2012 Paris Roubaix win was awesome.
But there are different ways to win, and if a rider doesn't have the individual or team strength to animate a race, then racing "smart" as an individual to win is just as legitimate as having your team blow away the stronger individuals who lack team strength to win by themselves.
briztoon
BANNED
Afrank said:
Are you kidding?
Frowned upon by who? Not the Pro teams. I don't see any DS's sitting their castigating their riders for sitting in and conserving energy.
When you're in a 4 man break, especially one where two riders are from the same team and you know the break is not going to be caught, what's the point of riding for the opposition.
You need to listen to rider interviews or open your eyes.
Gerrans MSR win, he said in his interview it was all he could do to hold Cancellaras wheel on both the decent and on the flat run in. He tried to give a turn, but his turn was slower than what Cancellara could do by himself all the way to the end.
Other posters have commented on Costa only just being able to stay with the other breakaway riders on the climbs. Why give a turn if you're only turning yourself inside out for some one else to win.
After the last climb, with Purito gone, Costa still didn't work. In 9 out of 10 races, that would have cost him the race.
Frowned upon by who, you say? By the other riders. See everybody vs Pozzato for an example.
Frowned upon by who, you say? By the other riders. See everybody vs Pozzato for an example.
The massive difference is that Pozzato does it stupidly, he ends up screwing up his own chances.hrotha said:
For Costa, however, he always ends up winning in situations like this (except in Plouay last year when EBH dropped him on the flat
). It wasn't "lucky" that Nibali chased...Costa knew that Nibali would chase, so why would he waste energy doing it?When you're not the strongest rider, you have to be smart. And he is. If you don't want smart riders to win, maybe races should be decided purely in the lab...?
Alright, use Voeckler as an example then. Voeckler also tends to win when he's up there, and few in the peloton like him because he's seen as a selfish rider who won't work properly in a break.
Strawman.
hrotha said:
Had he worked, either JRod or Valverde would be the winner.
I can't really fault him.
It's great to see an attacking cyclist, really, but it sometimes it's better to just wait for the moment where you can put to good use what you are good at.
Reminds of Nibali this Vuelta only 3 sec behind Horner... he should have waited for the finish and try to get those 3 sec back. Instead he attacked early and repeatedly even after it was obvious Horner was not going anywhere. Pretty dumb if you ask me...
And for the record, Nibali IS one my favourite riders. He's just not a smart guy.
briztoon said:
Frowned upon by the fans and other riders in the select group. The point of Costa riding is too help give himself a chance to win instead of just force Nibali to do all the work in the hope that he will be able to bring it back together. He was lucky that Nibali did do the chasing in this case.
And I don't blame Gerrans for the way he raced MSR, never have. I just added him in because the post I was responding to used him in addition to Costa as examples of riders sitting on.
I don't think Costa was struggling and giving his all just to stay with Nibali and Valverde up the climb either. He was a little further back on the climb. But I think he had the situation under control. And I don't think he would have had to turn himself inside out if he took a pull either. The reason why a rider should take a pull I already alluded to in my last post, it's the fairer and more honorable thing to do. As opposed to making someone else do all the work.
Anybody knows how much Grivko was behind atop the penultimate Fiesole ascent? He and Nibali were together over the finish line before Nibali got a ride by the team cars.
Grivko was very impressive
Grivko was very impressive
Billie said:
Grivko is a machine. I am not too suprised hwe would do well on a 270km long race. Still thought it would be a bit to much climbing form him though, so well done Grivko
Afrank said:
Of course Nibali was always going to pull. He won the Giro, placed 2nd in Vuelta and was riding in Firenze. He had all the burden to win the race, and he would do everything within his power.
Rui Costa just had the cooler head, and betted that Nibali would pull regartheless.
Afrank said:
Nibali had a 8 teamates, sames as Valverde. Rui Costa had 2. In a 270km race I think that matters a lot.
Even with Nibali crashing during the race I think that he had the obligation to pull rather than Rui Costa.
Furthermore, for Rui Costa a top10 would be great and a top5 superb. In that situation, he knew if he saved himself just a little he would have clinched a podium in a WCC. Why work?
Billie said:
I don't know for sure as there was no GPS for him (and he was not in one of the first three groups after the attacks on the climb, so not in ~Top 25), but in an interview on velolive he said he did ride his own pace and came back to the group with Sagan, so I guess he was approximately 40-50 seconds behind.
He did manage to take back some time on the descent though and then attacked with 3km to go. He did not know how many riders were still out in front as he could only see Valverde and Nibali, but when he saw neither of them raising their arms he realized that he wasn't riding for bronze anymore.
so funny people talking about taking a pull for reasons of fairness and honour!! PMSL!! No professional cyclist ever faced the wind for any reason other than to benefit either himself or a team-mate. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.
willbick said:
Yes, but that doesn't mean we can't be disappointed when the guy who did all the animating of the race gets caught in the final kilometre by a guy who contributed little to what made the race exciting. For an extreme example, how many people were rooting for the bunch to catch Tony Martin in the Vuelta?
Jux1893 said:
Having more teammates is good if you crash/mechanical so they can get you back on, or to keep you in good position, or to play the tactical battle (like Spain). As far as I know, Costa didn't have a crash/mechanical that he had to chase back on for. He probably sat in the bunch and kept himself in good position most of the time before the final selection was made. So I don't think having less teammates necessarily means Costa had to work harder then Nibali or Valverde in the rest of the race.
IMO both Costa and Nibali had obligation to pull, Nibali of course more so. But Costa decided to play the waiting tactical game. And of course it was smart to do so as it worked out for him. But I've already said in my last couple posts this thread why I think he should have helped and taken a pull.
Before this race I wanted the winner to be someone that really earned it. Someone that went on the attack or did a lot of pulling like Nibali and Purito did. Not someone that just sat on wheels and waited for the right moment. Winning that way just isn't as sweet a victory compared to winning by attacking or pulling a lot.
lol no-one wins races by pulling a lot. That's what team-mates are for.
and on the subject of fairness and 'honour', is it fair that a guy can crash (nibali), lose a minute or so on the peleton and then miraculously catch up again seemingly none the worse!!
and on the subject of fairness and 'honour', is it fair that a guy can crash (nibali), lose a minute or so on the peleton and then miraculously catch up again seemingly none the worse!!
Why Nibali did all the pulling? Simple Nibali had everything to Lose. Costa had nothing to lose. He knew that the other three were better than him. Rui Costa was also tired. He knew that if he took more pulls or made foolish attacks he would be kaput and his chance of any medal would evaporate. See his face after the attack he made and the effort of reaching Purito. He is at his limit.
I think there will be repercussion for this. There won't be many people who would work with him now that he has a target on his back Let's look at him in 2014
I think there will be repercussion for this. There won't be many people who would work with him now that he has a target on his back Let's look at him in 2014
willbick said:
Pleas get this through your head, when I say taking a pull as opposed to sitting on is more honorable, fairer, makes the riders more deserving of the win, etc. I'm talking about my personal opinion on racing and how cyclists should race.
I'm not saying it's the smartest tactic, or that any rider that doesn't ride this way isn't deserving of their wins; or anything else like that that you think I'm saying.
Like Libertine said, I rather prefer to see the guys that animate the race win then the guys that just sit on and let others do the work. And for this reason, I wasn't as excited about Costa's victory as I would have been about a Nibali or Rodriguez victory. The type of racing where the winner just sits on when they could take a pull and hlep, then just comes around the other rider at the end is not the kind of racing that really get's me excited.
As for Nibali, like I've said before I don't see much wrong with using a cars draft to catch back on if it's after a crash. Just don't see how he is getting any unfair advantage there over his competitors in the peloton that didn't crash.
I think he'd be DQ'ed if it wasn't on home soil.
I would probably mind it more if it was done by Valverde
I would probably mind it more if it was done by Valverde
hrotha said:
I agree it's now allowed a lot of the time even in TTs behind other riders. Leaves a bad taste.
hrotha said:
I remember when Froome eated and took a few sec penalty, by the rules, forum was full of moral warriors calling for DSQ, even he was penalized by the rules.
The same moral warriors have no problem with Nibali drafting km's and hanging on the car in a WC race.
Also, CN front page article conveniently forgot to report that. Benson is more keen to get revenge on Horner hanging the phone instead of searching who should had to DSQ Nibali and didn't do it because Nibali is a protected rider..
Leaves a bad taste about the quality around.
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