2016 Eneco Tour (WT): Sept 19 - 25th

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

Amazing race! Even with only one good stage Eneco Tour is still one of the best stage races of the year

Also, does Sagan have a popularity problem in the peloton? I don't want to bring any speculative theories into being, but the lack of cooperation with his chase was really weird.

Dumoulin try to chase but problem for Sagan was he just was not good enough today.

Sagan's main problem today was the usual. Lack of cooperation in his group. That he was slightly worse than he's used to was just the difference between not being able to kick them off his wheel regardless if being leeched. But his main problem? Break companions focusing on making him lose rather than winning themselves and a strong front group working well together.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re: Re:

Amazing race! Even with only one good stage Eneco Tour is still one of the best stage races of the year

Also, does Sagan have a popularity problem in the peloton? I don't want to bring any speculative theories into being, but the lack of cooperation with his chase was really weird.

Dumoulin try to chase but problem for Sagan was he just was not good enough today.

Sagan's main problem today was the usual. Lack of cooperation in his group. That he was slightly worse than he's used to was just the difference between not being able to kick them off his wheel regardless if being leeched. But his main problem? Break companions focusing on making him lose rather than winning themselves and a strong front group working well together.

National team events are his best allies.

 

[portugal11]

Sagan is so much better than GVA that if sagan was in bmc, he would win every classic he entered

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

Damn Sagan interview was killer.

"I was racing against everybody else. No one wanted to win. At least I didn't fall"
"wining or losing eneco doesn't change anything. I won more than everybody here. 2 stages, 3rd and world tour leader. "

I don't know what he was complaining about.
Everybody in that second group was just not as good as the guys in the first group (including him). That's how it works in these races of attrition.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Sagan is so much better than GVA that if sagan was in bmc, he would win every classic he entered

This statement is false.

 

[LaFlorecita]

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

Amazing race! Even with only one good stage Eneco Tour is still one of the best stage races of the year

Also, does Sagan have a popularity problem in the peloton? I don't want to bring any speculative theories into being, but the lack of cooperation with his chase was really weird.

Dumoulin try to chase but problem for Sagan was he just was not good enough today.

Sagan's main problem today was the usual. Lack of cooperation in his group. That he was slightly worse than he's used to was just the difference between not being able to kick them off his wheel regardless if being leeched. But his main problem? Break companions focusing on making him lose rather than winning themselves and a strong front group working well together.

This...

 

[MacBAir]

Anyway, after a great weekend I'm Quebec and Montreal, an European title and eneco a few hours later, Sagan needes a rest with some classics in between.

He goes to the worlds with more team support than Tinkoff (lol, sad but true) and no pressure at all.

Only good things can come from it.

Hopefully Belgium, Italy and Spain destroy therace. The rest is music.

After eneco, I'm not even mad if it ends on a sprint, as long as Greipel wins. I saw him on other hard races, and he always attacks. Even today, with all the bad luck... What a champion.

If it ends on a sprint and Sagan or GVA don't win, please, let it be Greipel ahead of Cavendish.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

People slag Rojas off.

They do not know Jos van Emden.

Is he also a fascist?

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

People slag Rojas off.

They do not know Jos van Emden.

Is he also a fascist?

I don't know, but that's also not the point [of the joke].

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Amazing race! Even with only one good stage Eneco Tour is still one of the best stage races of the year

Also, does Sagan have a popularity problem in the peloton? I don't want to bring any speculative theories into being, but the lack of cooperation with his chase was really weird.

Dumoulin try to chase but problem for Sagan was he just was not good enough today.

Sagan's main problem today was the usual. Lack of cooperation in his group. That he was slightly worse than he's used to was just the difference between not being able to kick them off his wheel regardless if being leeched. But his main problem? Break companions focusing on making him lose rather than winning themselves and a strong front group working well together.

It's a false choice. Right now there's a norm where the normal thing to do is to not collaborate with Sagan. Sometimes you are the one profiting from that, other times it is someone else. By upholding that norm, the riders are more likely to profit from it, when they eventually are in a position to, than if they only focused on the here and now and helped Peter. It's perfectly understandable and logical (to a certain extend). It's a delicate balance, and part of what makes cycling so appealing to me.

 

[KGB]

Re: Re:

Damn Sagan interview was killer.

"I was racing against everybody else. No one wanted to win. At least I didn't fall"
"wining or losing eneco doesn't change anything. I won more than everybody here. 2 stages, 3rd and world tour leader. "

I don't know what he was complaining about.
Everybody in that second group was just not as good as the guys in the first group (including him). That's how it works in these races of attrition.

Yes this.Not sure about T.Dumoulin.Shame for him he was not in first group.

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

Amazing race! Even with only one good stage Eneco Tour is still one of the best stage races of the year

Also, does Sagan have a popularity problem in the peloton? I don't want to bring any speculative theories into being, but the lack of cooperation with his chase was really weird.

Dumoulin try to chase but problem for Sagan was he just was not good enough today.

Sagan's main problem today was the usual. Lack of cooperation in his group. That he was slightly worse than he's used to was just the difference between not being able to kick them off his wheel regardless if being leeched. But his main problem? Break companions focusing on making him lose rather than winning themselves and a strong front group working well together.

It's a false choice. Right now there's a norm where the normal thing to do is to not collaborate with Sagan. Sometimes you are the one profiting from that, other times it is someone else. By upholding that norm, the riders are more likely to profit from it, when they eventually are in a position to, than if they only focused on the here and now and helped Peter. It's perfectly understandable and logical (to a certain extend). It's a delicate balance, and part of what makes cycling so appealing to me.

Don't you think that is a bit unsportsmanlike? Especially when they have an alternative? It's not like their only chance of winning is by not working and hope they see themselves in the same situation some day forward, getting repaid by whomever's in Sagan's group. P'rhaps we need rules to prevent that gangbanging culture. Stinks of bullying to me. I'm honestly curious, would you be ok with things like the Porte - Clarke wheel scenario if the rules allowed it? Lending a wheel to another rider is hypothetically symbiotic, despite not being necessarily fair to some others.

 

[MacBAir]

Re: Re:

Damn Sagan interview was killer.

"I was racing against everybody else. No one wanted to win. At least I didn't fall"
"wining or losing eneco doesn't change anything. I won more than everybody here. 2 stages, 3rd and world tour leader. "

I don't know what he was complaining about.
Everybody in that second group was just not as good as the guys in the first group (including him). That's how it works in these races of attrition.

It could've helped if you watched the god damned race.

Sagan is alone - Group of strong riders go for it - Cannondele rider falls with GVA on his wheel (barely staying on his bike)and Sagan has to brake - Group gains some seconds and the gap grows - Sagan is alone and no one cooperates - Group with Degenkolb and Major Tom goes away - Sagan is alone and no one works with him - Sagan attacks and destroys everybody and reaches the Giant group alone, without Lotto jumbo boys and GVA and Phinney - Good cooperation on that group (giant, peter, loto red), until Degenkolb can't do it anymore - Tom stops working after 2km, Lotto guys stop working, Sagan is alone, gap grows - Sagan drops everybody besides stybar and catches some members from the front group - no one works, previous group joins in without cooperation - Previous group with GVA and Lotto yellow also join in, pointless attacks without cooperation - expected results.

Tom could do that pathetic dig on the final because he did nothing more in the last 20 KM. Same for GVA.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

People slag Rojas off.

They do not know Jos van Emden.

Is he also a fascist?

I don't know, but that's also not the point [of the joke].

I know it's not the point of the joke, don't worry

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

People slag Rojas off.

They do not know Jos van Emden.

Is he also a fascist?

I don't know, but that's also not the point [of the joke].

I know it's not the point of the joke, don't worry

I know that you know that wasn't the point of the joke.

Just making sure I didn't come across as calling van Emden a supporter of Anton Mussert or something.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Sagan's main problem today was the usual. Lack of cooperation in his group. That he was slightly worse than he's used to was just the difference between not being able to kick them off his wheel regardless if being leeched. But his main problem? Break companions focusing on making him lose rather than winning themselves and a strong front group working well together.

It's a false choice. Right now there's a norm where the normal thing to do is to not collaborate with Sagan. Sometimes you are the one profiting from that, other times it is someone else. By upholding that norm, the riders are more likely to profit from it, when they eventually are in a position to, than if they only focused on the here and now and helped Peter. It's perfectly understandable and logical (to a certain extend). It's a delicate balance, and part of what makes cycling so appealing to me.

Don't you think that is a bit unsportsmanlike? Especially when they have an alternative? It's not like their only chance of winning is by not working and hope they see themselves in the same situation some day forward, getting repaid by whomever's in Sagan's group. P'rhaps we need rules to prevent that gangbanging culture. Stinks of bullying to me. I'm honestly curious, would you be ok with things like the Porte - Clarke wheel scenario if the rules allowed it? Lending a wheel to another rider is hypothetically symbiotic, despite not being necessarily fair to some others.

Sportsmanship is a norm dictated by the strong to favor themselves. It's completely arbitrary and I have no need for any rider to limit himself by it, though I respect that like any other norm, they may get a net-positive by upholding it (maybe they fear repercussion if they don't). Dictating and defying norms are a crucial aspect of cycling, and as much part of a winning strategy as anything else (and winning is what it is all about). Written rules are obviously something else, but as long as what goes on is within those, I do not have anything principally against any behavior (in a scenario where the written rules are as they should be). The peloton remembers and can (and will) control 'bad' behavior. Cycling in many ways reflects parts of real life, and though that may not seem pretty to most, neither is real life.

I like cycling when it's muddy, brutal and cynical.

 

[KGB]

Re: Re:

Damn Sagan interview was killer.

"I was racing against everybody else. No one wanted to win. At least I didn't fall"
"wining or losing eneco doesn't change anything. I won more than everybody here. 2 stages, 3rd and world tour leader. "

I don't know what he was complaining about.
Everybody in that second group was just not as good as the guys in the first group (including him). That's how it works in these races of attrition.

It could've helped if you watched the god damned race.

Sagan is alone - Group of strong riders go for it - Cannondele rider falls with GVA on his wheel (barely staying on his bike)and Sagan has to brake - Group gains some seconds and the gap grows - Sagan is alone and no one cooperates - Group with Degenkolb and Major Tom goes away - Sagan is alone and no one works with him - Sagan attacks and destroys everybody and reaches the Giant group alone, without Lotto jumbo boys and GVA and Phinney - Good cooperation on that group (giant, peter, loto red), until Degenkolb can't do it anymore - Tom stops working after 2km, Lotto guys stop working, Sagan is alone, gap grows - Sagan drops everybody besides stybar and catches some members from the front group - no one works, previous group joins in without cooperation - Previous group with GVA and Lotto yellow also join in, pointless attacks without cooperation - expected results.

Tom could do that pathetic dig on the final because he did nothing more in the last 20 KM. Same for GVA.

Yes except Tom part.He did probably more then Sagan.Cooperation or not Sagan was not good enough today and you could see that from about 60km to the finish when his last man burned himself.Not team mates?Cut your salary to 4 mil and 2 mil use for good two helpers and don't keep in your team riders like Kolar(because he was your best kid mate).
Now just take a break(ignore Doha which he can not) and start to build form for spring classic season and rest of the season just give to chance to win another riders

 

[saganftw]

its perfectly fine not to work with race favourite, its a tactical decision when you gamble that the favourite will do the most pulling because he wants to win the race and you might sneak in for a stage win

the fact that it almost never works UNLESS you are the only one left with the race favourite (for example mountain top finish) is a failure in tactical thinking and should be corrected by DS

i wonder how much of that behaviour is influenced by desire to score as many WT points as possible (and maybe getting a better contract next season as a result) and cyclists willingly trade their chances to win a race for a certainty of not loosing it completly

 

[Keram]

Yes Sagan and GVA today were under their best. I thought Sagan will shake of more deadweight on bergs and somehow close the gap. Imo both weren´t really good on cobbled hills however there weren´t much more better riders. Sagan has in his legs also ERR and his main competitors has not. Maybe this was the difference today.

Anyway with 70 points Nairo needs pudium at GDL right? What is tie breaker if it will be 669 vs 669?

 

[Netserk]

Re:

its perfectly fine not to work with race favourite, its a tactical decision when you gamble that the favourite will do the most pulling because he wants to win the race and you might sneak in for a stage win

the fact that it almost never works UNLESS you are the only one left with the race favourite (for example mountain top finish) is a failure in tactical thinking and should be corrected by DS

i wonder how much of that behaviour is influenced by desire to score as many WT points as possible (and maybe getting a better contract next season as a result) and cyclists willingly trade their chances to win a race for a certainty of not loosing it completly

That is only true if you look at things very short term. It's about balancing the tactical and strategical interests.

 

[MacBAir]

Yes Sagan and GVA today were under their best. I thought Sagan will shake of more deadweight on bergs and somehow close the gap. Imo both weren´t really good on cobbled hills however there weren´t much more better riders. Sagan has in his legs also ERR and his main competitors has not. Maybe this was the difference today.

Anyway with 70 points Nairo needs pudium at GDL right? What is tie breaker if it will be 669 vs 669?

2 things.

First, Quintana said he won't race GDL. Sagan sealed the ranking victory today.

Second, Sagan dropped everybody from the GVA group on a berg, and caught the Giant-Lotto group. On the next berg dropped everyone besides Stybar and caught some members of the guys that were at the front.

Then no one cooperated and it is what it is, but Sagan was still mighty, despite racing by himself + wining 2 stages + great iTT + European title all in a row, without rest.

 

[Tank Engine]

Re: Re:

Damn Sagan interview was killer.

"I was racing against everybody else. No one wanted to win. At least I didn't fall"
"wining or losing eneco doesn't change anything. I won more than everybody here. 2 stages, 3rd and world tour leader. "

I don't know what he was complaining about.
Everybody in that second group was just not as good as the guys in the first group (including him). That's how it works in these races of attrition.

However, it was not just a race of attrition. Tactics and accidents played a huge role. Etixx played the numbers game, BMC disintigrated after Dennis' crash and Tinkoff just disintigrated. Hence, Sagan was isolated and couldn't take advantage of the BMC-Etixx rivalry. If he tried to follow each Etixx attack, he'd just wear himself out and he wasn't going to blow everybody off his wheel from 40km out. The front break worked efficiently compared to the chasers, where Sagan only got a bit of help from a couple of Lotto and Giant riders. When Degenkolb was dropped, Sagan and Dumoulin were outnumbered and even if they were as strong as the guys in the front group, there was no way that they were going to catch up.

 

[Flamin]

Sagan's lack of great ability to read a race played a bigger role in him losing today than no one cooperating. When Terpstra went, Etixx had Jungels up the road and had clearly proven to be the strongest force in the race at that point, yet Sagan, already isolated, sat back and let it happen.

It was the first potential race-defining move and he decided not to join in. Fair enough it's not easy to be the most watched guy, but in this case the blame is mostly on himself.

 

[animir]

Re:

Sagan's lack of great ability to read a race played a bigger role in him losing today than no one cooperating. When Terpstra went, Etixx had Jungels up the road and had clearly proven to be the strongest force in the race at that point, yet Sagan, already isolated, sat back and let it happen.

It was the first potential race-defining move and he decided not to join in. Fair enough it's not easy to be the most watched guy, but in this case the blame is mostly on himself.

Maybe it was Sagan's mistake, but would the first group ride if Sagan would join them? We dont know, but usually when Sagan joins the break, they stop and attack again. The only solution is to have teammates.