2016 Paris - Nice, March 6th - 13th, WT

[LaFlorecita]

It definitely helps on such a power descent to have a couple TV motors to draft behind.

One word: Annecy.

Indeed, it's very clear what a huge help it can be.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

It's tactics 101. What tactic would you suggest?

Sky's entire team combined doesn't even have the tactical brilliance that Contador has in his pinky toe so not sure what your point is.

My point is that Contador is hailed as a tactical genius when in fact all he does is repeat the same old tactic again, again and again.

 

[Gloin22]

Re: Re:

It's tactics 101. What tactic would you suggest?

Sky's entire team combined doesn't even have the tactical brilliance that Contador has in his pinky toe so not sure what your point is.

My point is that Contador is hailed as a tactical genius when in fact all he does is repeat the same old tactic again, again and again.

Is he really hailed? Everyone knows he'll attack early or midway and everyone accepts it. He has balls, that's not tactics, that panache.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

It's tactics 101. What tactic would you suggest?

Sky's entire team combined doesn't even have the tactical brilliance that Contador has in his pinky toe so not sure what your point is.

My point is that Contador is hailed as a tactical genius when in fact all he does is repeat the same old tactic again, again and again.

Yes and it is one of the most effective tactics. Don't change a winning tactic. Next.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re: Re:

It's tactics 101. What tactic would you suggest?

Sky's entire team combined doesn't even have the tactical brilliance that Contador has in his pinky toe so not sure what your point is.

My point is that Contador is hailed as a tactical genius when in fact all he does is repeat the same old tactic again, again and again.

Yes and it is one of the most effective tactics. Don't change a winning tactic. Next.

Except that he lost.

 

[HelloDolly]

Are we allowed to comment on the fact that Contador obviously didn't ride a very strong descent (he can't push the big gears) or do we have to continue to praise his glorious failure to win the race?

on the first descent contador only started to lose time when roche started chasing. before that the gap was steady at 50 seconds.

Yes SKY made up 50 seconds on Tinkoff on that descent alone....?? Maybe Yrofimov & Kiserloski need ot go to descending school for a week

It definitely helps on such a power descent to have a couple TV motors to draft behind.

I sa w the race ...SKY had no more drafting from motorbikes than Tinkoff had...both had bikes along side

But you cannot accept anyone else can do anything better than Contador

 

[HelloDolly]

Are we allowed to comment on the fact that Contador obviously didn't ride a very strong descent (he can't push the big gears) or do we have to continue to praise his glorious failure to win the race?

on the first descent contador only started to lose time when roche started chasing. before that the gap was steady at 50 seconds.

Yes SKY made up 50 seconds on Tinkoff on that descent alone....?? Maybe Yrofimov & Kiserloski need ot go to descending school for a week

Tinkoff boys dont know the roads there. Sky boys (Roche Swift Boswell) ride there every other day. that´s not much downhill, it is not very steep and you never stop pedalling.

Downhill or not they still made up 50 seconds in no time ...and if it wasn't downhill (which it was btw for most) then knowing the road does not really matter that much

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

It's tactics 101. What tactic would you suggest?

Sky's entire team combined doesn't even have the tactical brilliance that Contador has in his pinky toe so not sure what your point is.

My point is that Contador is hailed as a tactical genius when in fact all he does is repeat the same old tactic again, again and again.

Yes and it is one of the most effective tactics. Don't change a winning tactic. Next.

Except that he lost.

Haven't you heard ...winning isn't that important ...what did one poster say- that they would be unhappy to be Thomas and win like that

No ...winning is so last year....its all about 'being the best' measured by some die hard Contador fans in some very subjective manner that shifts from day to day

 

[LaFlorecita]

I sa w the race ...SKY had no more drafting from motorbikes than Tinkoff had...both had bikes along side

But you cannot accept anyone else can do anything better than Contador

How do you explain the race jury ordering the motor bikes to keep a greater distance 3 times?

 

[HelloDolly]

I sa w the race ...SKY had no more drafting from motorbikes than Tinkoff had...both had bikes along side

But you cannot accept anyone else can do anything better than Contador

How do you explain the race jury ordering the motor bikes to keep a greater distance 3 times?

As i said the bikes were in front of Tinkoff as well... have a look ..

Poor losers are very unedifying

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Except that he lost.

Which tactic do you suggest could have won him the race?
If you're up against a strong rider with a strong team, and you don't think you can get the time necessary on the final climb, the answer is simple - attack before the final climb. Putting teammates in the break is a logical first step - it certainly does no harm to your team leader's chances of making it to the finish with an advantage.
It doesn't always work, but no tactic has a 100% success rate. This one worked for Contador at the 2012 Vuelta, and Andy Schleck at the 2011 Tour. It's cycling tactics 101 - but I'm not surprised a bunch of Sky fans don't get it. After all, Sky doesn't even have a tactic, they just rely on their complete superiority to win races, and once they're not superior, they're screwed

 

[LaFlorecita]

As i said the bikes were in front of Tinkoff as well... have a look ..

Poor losers are very unedifying

I can imagine it was very frustrating for the Tinkoff DS's to have to tell their riders the chasers kept getting closer, despite them riding their hearts out, while knowing it was because of the motorbikes.
It must be hard for the Sky fanboys to deal with the fact that their rider only won thanks to a cancelled stage and motorbike drafting

 

[snccdcno]

I sa w the race ...SKY had no more drafting from motorbikes than Tinkoff had...both had bikes along side

But you cannot accept anyone else can do anything better than Contador

How do you explain the race jury ordering the motor bikes to keep a greater distance 3 times?

As i said the bikes were in front of Tinkoff as well... have a look ..

Poor losers are very unedifying

Did the race jury order the bikes away from the Tinkoff group?

If not then despite what you saw it seems like it might not actually be the case.

 

[HelloDolly]

Gosh for a team that doesn't have tactics they certainly win alot of races

What tactic should have Contador done ....maybe done more work on his TT for starters
Very hard to win stage race (wit TT) unless you are right up there on TT

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

It's tactics 101. What tactic would you suggest?

Sky's entire team combined doesn't even have the tactical brilliance that Contador has in his pinky toe so not sure what your point is.

My point is that Contador is hailed as a tactical genius when in fact all he does is repeat the same old tactic again, again and again.

it's cycling afterall, not football and not chess. the number of tactical options one can use is very limited. nonetheless, bertie's tactical genius is being a bit overrated though.

 

[HelloDolly]

As i said the bikes were in front of Tinkoff as well... have a look ..

Poor losers are very unedifying

I can imagine it was very frustrating for the Tinkoff DS's to have to tell their riders the chasers kept getting closer, despite them riding their hearts out, while knowing it was because of the motorbikes.
It must be hard for the Sky fanboys to deal with the fact that their rider only won thanks to a cancelled stage and motorbike drafting

Not at all...a win is a win ...

You complain about (something that is denied by Thomas and SKY btw ) yet concur that Contador benefited from the same in past but don't undermine those wins or spent pages questioning their validity

Talk about grasping at straws, selective bias and circular arguments

I am not sure what the purpose of your posts

A true sporting person...would say the best man/team won and leave it at that

As I say very unedifying

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re: Re:

Except that he lost.

Which tactic do you suggest could have won him the race?
If you're up against a strong rider with a strong team, and you don't think you can get the time necessary on the final climb, the answer is simple - attack before the final climb. Putting teammates in the break is a logical first step - it certainly does no harm to your team leader's chances of making it to the finish with an advantage.
It doesn't always work, but no tactic has a 100% success rate. This one worked for Contador at the 2012 Vuelta, and Andy Schleck at the 2011 Tour. It's cycling tactics 101 - but I'm not surprised a bunch of Sky fans don't get it. After all, Sky doesn't even have a tactic, they just rely on their complete superiority to win races, and once they're not superior, they're screwed

In hindsight, he could have attacked Thomas on the steep final 300m of the penultimate stage rather than wasting energy on fruitless attacks earlier in the climb. It's hard to believe that Thomas could have matched a fresher Contador in those circumstances. We all love Contador because he makes races far more exciting than any other cyclist currently riding but it's ridiculous to suggest his tactics are always spot on. Your last comment is especially amusing as Contador was superior to Thomas and still lost.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

In hindsight, he could have attacked Thomas on the steep final 300m of the penultimate stage rather than wasting energy on fruitless attacks earlier in the climb. It's hard to believe that Thomas could have matched a fresher Contador in those circumstances. We all love Contador because he makes races far more exciting than any other cyclist currently riding but it's ridiculous to suggest his tactics are always spot on. Your last comment is especially amusing as Contador was superior to Thomas and still lost.

I thought we were talking about stage 7
Contador needed 14 seconds so it is logical he did not want to wait until the final km. So, the only earlier opportunity was with 6km to go. In hindsight, maybe he could have taken those 14 seconds in the final 500m, but we will never know, also, in hindsight it's easy to call those attacks fruitless but he couldn't have known that beforehand, and if he hadn't attacked Sky could have continued their choo choo train until the last km.
He has gotten outsprinted in the final km of a MTF so often that I cannot blame him for not wanting to let it all come down to that final sprint.
Contador was definitely not superior to the entire Sky team combined.
Sky only have 1 "tactic" (if we can even call it that) and it's "ride a certain number of Watts until you're dead and then someone else takes over". The Vuelta 2014, for example, showed they don't know anything else.
Let's say the roles were reversed. If Contador had been 15 seconds ahead of Thomas before the final stage, do you think Sky would have tried anything other than their usual train tempo ride? I highly doubt it.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re: Re:

In hindsight, he could have attacked Thomas on the steep final 300m of the penultimate stage rather than wasting energy on fruitless attacks earlier in the climb. It's hard to believe that Thomas could have matched a fresher Contador in those circumstances. We all love Contador because he makes races far more exciting than any other cyclist currently riding but it's ridiculous to suggest his tactics are always spot on. Your last comment is especially amusing as Contador was superior to Thomas and still lost.

I thought we were talking about stage 7
Contador needed 14 seconds so it is logical he did not want to wait until the final km. So, the only earlier opportunity was with 6km to go. In hindsight, maybe he could have taken those 14 seconds in the final 500m, but we will never know, also, in hindsight it's easy to call those attacks fruitless but he couldn't have known that beforehand, and if he hadn't attacked Sky could have continued their choo choo train until the last km.
He has gotten outsprinted in the final km of a MTF so often that I cannot blame him for not wanting to let it all come down to that final sprint.
Contador was definitely not superior to the entire Sky team combined.
Sky only have 1 "tactic" (if we can even call it that) and it's "ride a certain number of Watts until you're dead and then someone else takes over". The Vuelta 2014, for example, showed they don't know anything else.
Let's say the roles were reversed. If Contador had been 15 seconds ahead of Thomas before the final stage, do you think Sky would have tried anything other than their usual train tempo ride? I highly doubt it.

Contador had a team riding for him as well, what on earth are you on about? I am not defending Sky or being critical of Contador anyway. My original point was that you said Contador's tactic was a winning one. It wasn't, he lost.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Not at all...a win is a win ...

You complain about (something that is denied by Thomas and SKY btw ) yet concur that Contador benefited from the same in past but don't undermine those wins or spent pages questioning their validity

Talk about grasping at straws, selective bias and circular arguments

I am not sure what the purpose of your posts

A true sporting person...would say the best man/team won and leave it at that

As I say very unedifying

I struggle to understand why you care enough to get so worked up about it

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Contador had a team riding for him as well, what on earth are you on about? I am not defending Sky or being critical of Contador anyway. My original point was that you said Contador's tactic was a winning one. It wasn't, he lost.

Okay. Contador and his team were not superior to Thomas and his team on this parcours with the power descents etc.
This tactic has been proven to be very effective many times, that is why I called it a winning tactic. I cannot see which tactic would have yielded a better result in the last stage.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re: Re:

Contador had a team riding for him as well, what on earth are you on about? I am not defending Sky or being critical of Contador anyway. My original point was that you said Contador's tactic was a winning one. It wasn't, he lost.

Okay. Contador AND his team were not superior to Thomas AND his team on THIS parcours with the power descents etc.
This tactic has been proven to be very effective many times, that is why I called it a winning tactic. I cannot see which tactic would have yielded a better result in the last stage.

Neither can I, the fact is that he was not good enough. Glad we agree on that point.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Neither can I, the fact is that he was not good enough. Glad we agree on that point.

Great, so we can agree that his tactics were spot on.
Indeed, he wasn't good enough to win on this parcours, with the cancelled stage, against a Team Sky-Gallopin collaboration with possible help of motorbikes. No shame in that! he's not superhuman, after all

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re: Re:

Neither can I, the fact is that he was not good enough. Glad we agree on that point.

Great, so we can agree that his tactics were spot on.
Indeed, he wasn't good enough to win on this parcours, with the cancelled stage, against a Team Sky-Gallopin collaboration with possible help of motorbikes. No shame in that! he's not superhuman, after all

Thomas, however, was good enough to win with the parcours, the cancelled stage, against a Tinkoff-Porte-Wellens collaboration with possible help of motorbikes. Thomas must be superhuman, blimey.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Thomas, however, was good enough to win with the parcours, the cancelled stage, against a Tinkoff-Porte-Wellens collaboration with possible help of motorbikes. Thomas must be superhuman, blimey.

Yes, it's not like the parcours suited Thomas better or anything
I'm trying to stay relaxed, but geez, you Sky fan-nutters are making it hard not to flip out.