A bizarre defence of the Omerta.

[Digger]

"I know a kid who doesn't live far from me, and when they brought out that book by Willy Voet, which documented all the ways he had helped riders to cheat dope controls over the years, this kid went out and bought it and copied everything in the book. Sometimes cyclists get criticised when we react badly to insiders telling tales about what has gone on behind closed dorrs. It's called spitting in the soup. But with that kid i know, and many others like him I bet, how responsible was Voet to write his book?"

From CURRENT Directot Sportif with Columbia, Allan Peiper. So riders should never tell of drug taking in Pro cycling, for fear that younger riders get ideas.

 

[Cartesian Centaur]

Hm, because of course telling the officials all the methods you use to get around them couldn't possibly help them avoid the same thing happening in future...

 

[blackcat]

"I know a kid who doesn't live far from me, and when they brought out that book by Willy Voet, which documented all the ways he had helped riders to cheat dope controls over the years, this kid went out and bought it and copied everything in the book. Sometimes cyclists get criticised when we react badly to insiders telling tales about what has gone on behind closed dorrs. It's called spitting in the soup. But with that kid i know, and many others like him I bet, how responsible was Voet to write his book?"

From CURRENT Directot Sportif with Columbia, Allan Peiper. So riders should never tell of drug taking in Pro cycling, for fear that younger riders get ideas.

Peiper should go to CEM and hire Big Boat the forum's own dodgy alchemist.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

peiper should go to cem and hire big boat the forum's own dodgy alchemist.

lol!

.

 

[David Suro]

There is a tremendous amount of information available on the internet regarding 'how to beat a drug test'. Most of the information is aimed at masking recreational drug use from parole officers or employers, but a more detailed search for PED's yields a lot of information, too.

In the book mentioned, a concise summary of the methods used to beat the doping controls used in sport. This just makes things more convenient for the user.

Similarly, it makes things more convenient for those who design and conduct the tests. I hope the independent labs and the governing bodies purchase and study this book, then learn how to discover if the methods in the book are being used.

 

[beroepsrenner]

"I know a kid who doesn't live far from me, and when they brought out that book by Willy Voet, which documented all the ways he had helped riders to cheat dope controls over the years, this kid went out and bought it and copied everything in the book. Sometimes cyclists get criticised when we react badly to insiders telling tales about what has gone on behind closed dorrs. It's called spitting in the soup. But with that kid i know, and many others like him I bet, how responsible was Voet to write his book?"

From CURRENT Directot Sportif with Columbia, Allan Peiper. So riders should never tell of drug taking in Pro cycling, for fear that younger riders get ideas.

While I understand where Allan is coming from with this comment, if we dont spit in the soup then the outsiders who thrive on this forum will keep eating it without really knowing its ingredients. IMO cycling is the ultimate sport and knowing Allan, I'm sure he feels the same, but it has way too many skeletons in its closet which need to be removed and buried.

 

[Digger]

While I understand where Allan is coming from with this comment, if we dont spit in the soup then the outsiders who thrive on this forum will keep eating it without really knowing its ingredients. IMO cycling is the ultimate sport and knowing Allan, I'm sure he feels the same, but it has way too many skeletons in its closet which need to be removed and buried.

He also defended Danilo Hondo and Tyler, as well as a Liberty Seguros rider who was suspended for the 50%HCT rule. Anyone defending someone from LS needs their head read.
He said Hondo using amphetamines didn't make sense - so he doubts that he took them.
Tyler's case still leaves him in doubt apparently.

He says that there are many 'grey areas' in testing apparently.

Are these words the actions of an anti-doping DS?

Alan says that the attitude back in his time was that you were not good of you hadn't tested positive at least once. In one chapter he speaks in vague terms about his friends dying, long before their time, friends that he raced with. He, himself, feels that death is not far away, because 'I did what I did'. He also comes out with the usual drivel that it's now almost impossible to beat the testers. When we know that it's in fact very easy in most cases.

 

[beroepsrenner]

He also defened Danilo Hondo and Tyler, as well as a Liberty Seguros rider who was suspended for the 50%HCT rule.
He said Hondo using amphetamines didn't make sense - so he doubts that he took them.
Tyler's case still leaves him in doubt apparently.

He says that there are many 'grey areas' in testing apparently.

Are these words the actions of an anti-doping DS?

Yes. There are "grey areas" in testing. I know of a young Aussie who went to race in Belgium a few years ago and was found positive for testosterone in a post race control. I know this kids family and raced with his father and I know he would not be using PEDs. The bad experience virtually ended his career in cycling. They dont always get it right, hence the A & B samples.

As for your last question.... I'll let you work that one out yourself.

 

[Digger]

Yes. There are "grey areas" in testing. I know of a young Aussie who went to race in Belgium a few years ago and was found positive for testosterone in a post race control. I know this kids family and raced with his father and I know he would not be using PEDs. The bad experience virtually ended his career in cycling. They dont always get it right, hence the A & B samples.

As for your last question.... I'll let you work that one out yourself.

Defending Tyler and Hondo is more what I was alluding to.

 

[bianchigirl]

bero, I was just watching the World Championship's marathon and the commentator was talking about one of the German runners. Said he'd never cheered on his father because he came out of the East German system but his son was now doing it 'the honest way'. The supporting evidence for this seems to be that the son was now running for the 'clean' unified German system.

My point is, you say that the son couldn't have been doping because you knew the family, raced with the father, but how do you know beyond question that the son didn't get led astray?

Peiper used to be great doing colour pieces from inside the peloton for the C4 coverage way back when. He was a part of the sport in the pre-Festina years where you did what you did and didn't make a fuss about it - you certainly didn't bleat on about being the cleanest of the clean. But until all the support personnel who were around in the 80s and 90s in those pre-Festina times are out of the sport, those attitudes will always prevail.

 

[beroepsrenner]

bero, I was just watching the World Championship's marathon and the commentator was talking about one of the German runners. Said he'd never cheered on his father because he came out of the East German system but his son was now doing it 'the honest way'. The supporting evidence for this seems to be that the son was now running for the 'clean' unified German system.

My point is, you say that the son couldn't have been doping because you knew the family, raced with the father, but how do you know beyond question that the son didn't get led astray?

Peiper used to be great doing colour pieces from inside the peloton for the C4 coverage way back when. He was a part of the sport in the pre-Festina years where you did what you did and didn't make a fuss about it - you certainly didn't bleat on about being the cleanest of the clean. But until all the support personnel who were around in the 80s and 90s in those pre-Festina times are out of the sport, those attitudes will always prevail.

You are probably right on both points. Maybe I am also ingrained with the same mentality as AP being of the same vintage. Many of the guys I raced with managed to get through their whole careers without being exposed and most would just as soon keep it that way. It doesnt meen they are proud of what went on.

 

[bianchigirl]

Don't get me wrong, I thought the sport was actually better pre-Festina than post. Festina and Pantani got scapegoated for problems that had been going on in the sport a long time but that had been, by mutual consent, ignored. Unfortunately, the discovery of Voet's stash by the Customs meant the sport's dirty little secret could no longer be contained and we've ended up with the unsatisfactory 'anti-doping' situation we have at the moment.

 

[podilato]

There should not be a focus on just the riders. A lot of the DS's are ex-riders from the dark days. For example whatever you think of Riis, how is allowed to manage a cycling team? Same goes for LeFevre at Quick Step. He signed Virenque whilst he was still serving a ban. He is anti-doping all of a suddden? Also, Mark Madiot; the DS of former rider Christophe Bassons; was he supportive of Bassons?

With Mafiosi like this running teams then what do we expect?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I agree that this is a huge problem. But it's like analyzing an airplane crash. Where do you start? Take a look at Walter Godefroot., Rudy P, Manolo Saiz. Does anyone truly believe the Hog was clean, and truly pushes to run a clean ship?

Riis is an interesting situation. He admitted what he did. He's spoken out against doping, sort of. His CSC team was one of the first to run an anti-doping campaign of internal testing (though cynics argue to make sure their guys don't test + in controls). But JJ said if Riis didn't know what was going on with doping at CSC, he conveniently looked the other direction.

Then again, there's JV, who 99% likely doped during his career, but seems at almost every turn to try to help clean the sport up...right?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I agree that this is a huge problem. But it's like analyzing an airplane crash. Where do you start? Take a look at Walter Godefroot., Rudy P, Manolo Saiz. Doe anyone truly believe the Hog was clean, and truly pushes to run a clean ship?

Riis is an interesting situation. He admitted what he did. He's spoken out against doping, sort of. His CSC team was one of the first to run an anti-doping campaign of internal testing (though cynics argue to make sure their guys don't test + in controls). But JJ said if Riis didn't know what was going on with doping at CSC, he conveniently looked the other direction.

Then again, there's JV, who 99% likely doped during his career, but seems at almost every turn to try to help clean the sport up...right?

Some great points here - this highlights one of the major problem within the sport.

The new Sky team are currently trying to recruit 4 DS's who have no history or connection to doping! ...... I wish them luck.

 

[beroepsrenner]

Don't get me wrong, I thought the sport was actually better pre-Festina than post. Festina and Pantani got scapegoated for problems that had been going on in the sport a long time but that had been, by mutual consent, ignored. Unfortunately, the discovery of Voet's stash by the Customs meant the sport's dirty little secret could no longer be contained and we've ended up with the unsatisfactory 'anti-doping' situation we have at the moment.

Not at all! I hate to go over the same things again but for those that have not read some of my earlier posts on the subject I will. In Joe Parkin's book, he talks about turning up for his first pro kermis race and was amazed to see the other pros going through their "loading up" rituals while changing for the race. This was exactly the same as my experience. The cocktail of substances being used and without professional supervision was way more dangerous than what goes on now. Tom Simpson's death was a classic example. "The Festina Affair" merely lifted the lid on a can of worms that had been firmly entrenched in the sport for as long as anyone can remember. What has changed now is that it has become more clandestine and way more effective performance wise. Where it once wasnt hidden from each other, it now seems that everyone claims to be against it publicly while at the same time paying greedy doctors copious amounts of money for "training advise".
I would not like to speculate on what percentage of the peloton are currently using PEDs as its hard to believe anything you hear nowdays. Too many people have too much to lose.

 

[blackcat]

I agree that this is a huge problem. But it's like analyzing an airplane crash. Where do you start? Take a look at Walter Godefroot., Rudy P, Manolo Saiz. Doe anyone truly believe the Hog was clean, and truly pushes to run a clean ship?

Riis is an interesting situation. He admitted what he did. He's spoken out against doping, sort of. His CSC team was one of the first to run an anti-doping campaign of internal testing (though cynics argue to make sure their guys don't test + in controls). But JJ said if Riis didn't know what was going on with doping at CSC, he conveniently looked the other direction.

Then again, there's JV, who 99% likely doped during his career, but seems at almost every turn to try to help clean the sport up...right?

Alpe, Riis "supposedly" took half his A squad, or all the Tour squad, down to Fuentes, over the 05/06 off-season to deposit blood.

So, he takes half (if not apocryphal) his A team to Fuentes. In the case the anecdote is apocryphal, he takes no stance on Frank Schleck.

He also heavied a Danish paper and Damsgaard over KAA.

Riis had his doctors, 3 of them, train under Cecchini for 2 or 3 years.

Riis' hand is all over their doping program.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Hey, I'm no defender of Riis. Sorry if it came off that way. I just wanted to avoid posting too much speculation. I'm with the good Dr. M. I'd like to see the bathwater thrown out before the babies (DS's managers, etc. connected to doping banned before the riders).

I wish Sky all the luck, and think they are doing the right thing. I hope they too can continue to sponsor a team that doesn't get results, because if they are going to truly race 100% clean, they may find themselves on the short end of wins.

"The Festina Affair" merely lifted the lid on a can of worms that had been firmly entrenched in the sport for as long as anyone can remember.

Something Willy Voet pointed out quite clearly in his book.

Recall that one of the big reasons Festina went to near mandatory EPO and doctor supervised usage is because everyone was doing it, and they knew they couldn't stop their riders from doing it on their own as well. So, better to do it properly, and save the riders health.

The problem, as you say, lies in the effectiveness of O2 boosters and such being way more effective than merely uppers, cortisone and steroids, etc. That's what makes this argument so messy. There's cheating like the old days (which was arguably more harmful), and then there's modern cheating, which in 2009 is very likely on a lower level of usage than say, 1969. But modern doping makes a much bigger difference - to those who try, and get away with it -which makes not doping harder to get results with than back then.

 

[Barnaby]

The new Sky team are currently trying to recruit 4 DS's who have no history or connection to doping! ...... I wish them luck.

Like some soccer managers? Oh, er, hang on.......

 

[bianchigirl]

Absolutely Alpe, I've long been tempted to argue that perhaps the sport should pursue the Festina model - at least then we might approach the infamous 'level playing field'. And perhaps that's exactly what the Damsgaard prgramme is.

However, I am tempted to believe that in the bad old days there was actually much more of a level playing field because the methodology and effects were so hit and miss. EPO and blood manipulation favour good responders.

 

[usedtobefast]

i think you do not want to encourage doping at all. having said that, having people running around just going on and on about dopers,dopers,dopers really
does not help either. we do not want riders dieing from peds. professional sports is a hard nose affair, and the choices are not so cut and dried, especially
when it's your ssa on the line.