A Dope of an Idea

[elapid]

OK, I was thinking of doping during a concert this evening, particularly how effective is doping and how can detection methods be improved? One of the problems with this is that professional athletes cannot partake in this research for obvious reasons, but this is the group that would most benefit from this research. That then got me thinking ... why not do a cross-over study with recently banned professional cyclists? They are already banned, so it is not unethical for them to use certain doping products. If they participated in the study, then maybe the UCI could knock off some time of their suspension. I am no physiologist or trainer, but you could do something like:

- Training block with no products
- Training block with full dose EPO
- Training block with microdose EPO and blood transfusions
- Training block with blood transfusions
- Training block with testosterone

I am not sure what you would measure, but VO2 max, power output, etc. More importantly, the doping experts could then collect urine and blood at various time points to see when and how the best methods of detection are for each protocol. Because drug cheats are the guinea pigs, they would also know the most current protocols and doses, such as detailed by Kohl and Landis.

It might be a wacky idea, but something to think of anyway?

 

[graviT]

I seem to remember reading that you are still subject to the whereabouts system even when serving a suspension. This would imply that you cannot dope during a suspension if you intend to return to cycling.

 

[redtreviso]

I seem to remember reading that you are still subject to the whereabouts system even when serving a suspension. This would imply that you cannot dope during a suspension if you intend to return to cycling.

That only makes sense.

 

[lightandlongshadows]

I had to re-read that first sentence a couple times - doping and concert go together in a .... anyway...
You should see if you can jump into a military project or at least get funding. All this would lend itself to a super-soldier program. I sometimes wonder if that's not what all this dopie athletes is about anyway. Who knows.

 

[laziali]

OK, I was thinking of doping during a concert this evening, particularly how effective is doping and how can detection methods be improved? One of the problems with this is that professional athletes cannot partake in this research for obvious reasons, but this is the group that would most benefit from this research. ...

It might be a wacky idea, but something to think of anyway?

Not so wacky, as it happens. An EPO-effect test was conducted a number of years ago with top amateur level cyclists (obviously not ones who were wanting to race in UCI events). I think it was conducted by one of the three unis in your home state of SA, Elapid Can't remember the details, but one of the boffins on this site will recall.

 

[usedtobefast]

these guys can hook you up

http://www.synergyrejuvenation.com/florida/:cool:

 

[Green Tea]

I am no physiologist or trainer, but you could do something like:

- Training block with no products
- Training block with full dose EPO
- Training block with microdose EPO and blood transfusions
- Training block with blood transfusions
- Training block with testosterone

Another one too add.

- Training block with LEGAL nutritional supplements.

 

[Green Tea]

Epo?............

 

[Green Tea]

Suspect performances???...

You guys were saying?.

 

[Green Tea]

Cancellara's forte in the classics...

This will open peoples eyes.

 

[Green Tea]

Cyclists the study...

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/the_next_creatine

Is there any research supporting the effects of Beta-alanine?

JS: You bet! There have been studies showing significant increases in anaerobic threshold, training capacity, effects of training, muscular strength, muscular endurance, lean body mass, and even a significant drop in body fat percentage.

I've personally been involved in a few of these studies.

Speaking of endurance, what can you tell me about this study from South Korea on Olympic caliber cyclists?

JS: Sure, in a study presented just this summer, Dr. Kim from South Korea, examined the effects of supplementing Olympic caliber cyclist on either beta-alanine (4.8 g per day) or placebo while training for 12 weeks.

The beta-alanine group increased their carnosine levels by 33%, thus increasing anaerobic threshold and time to exhaustion, while the placebo group saw no or very little change.

The placebo group changes are typical in elite athletes as very intense training results in very small performance changes in elite athletes. But the effect of supplementing beta-alanine is huge and could be the difference between a medal and not finishing in the top 10.

The specific results of this study will be presented in 2007, but I can't say anything more about it right now.

 

[Green Tea]

Lance did pioneer the sport guys...


He was doing this stuff in '99'.

Little blighter...

 

[janus1969]

All this would lend itself to a super-soldier program. I sometimes wonder if that's not what all this dopie athletes is about anyway. Who knows.

In constant development...

 

[Green Tea]

When the tests kept coming back negative?.

 

[Martinello]

OK, I was thinking of doping during a concert this evening, particularly how effective is doping and how can detection methods be improved? One of the problems with this is that professional athletes cannot partake in this research for obvious reasons, but this is the group that would most benefit from this research. That then got me thinking ... why not do a cross-over study with recently banned professional cyclists? They are already banned, so it is not unethical for them to use certain doping products. If they participated in the study, then maybe the UCI could knock off some time of their suspension. I am no physiologist or trainer, but you could do something like:

- Training block with no products
- Training block with full dose EPO
- Training block with microdose EPO and blood transfusions
- Training block with blood transfusions
- Training block with testosterone

I am not sure what you would measure, but VO2 max, power output, etc. More importantly, the doping experts could then collect urine and blood at various time points to see when and how the best methods of detection are for each protocol. Because drug cheats are the guinea pigs, they would also know the most current protocols and doses, such as detailed by Kohl and Landis.

It might be a wacky idea, but something to think of anyway?

I like the idea with the guys on suspension - it really solves the age-old dilemma with a proper study population for these kind of studies. If such a study was ever considered I'm optimistic that UCI/WADA would be able to make some arrangements for the participating riders. The subjects in the intervention arm could be enrolled early in their suspension leaving ie. 6-12 months for wash out before returning to active competition.

From a scientific point of view the study is a tad too big. While I haven't done any power calculations I would say that the study would require more subjects than riders currently suspended.
As a rule of thumb, studies comparing different training regimens should have at least 20 in each arm. If the expected differences between responses in the different arms are big and variability is low, fewer subjects may do.

With 5 arms some kind of statistical correction (Bonferroni/Tukey) would be needed, again sapping power from the statistics.

To properly test the efficacy of microdosing epo/test, conditions comparable to a packed race calendar or stage race must be created which may no be feasable. It would be most practical and feasible just to test

Intervention a) NO ped's
Intervention b) Full dose EPO or Blood transfusions


That programme would require 40 riders(20/20), you could do a cross-over study in 1 season. 12 weeks with A or B then 8-10 weeks wash out and 12 weeks with A or B.

The costs wouldn't be excessive, the riders would probably participate for free (travel and medical costs aside) and WADA would do all the lab-work for free.

 

[dsut4392]

OK, I was thinking of doping during a concert this evening, particularly how effective is doping...

Most people thinking about doping during a concert would be trying to score some weed or ecstasy, not epo. EPO might help you endurance on the dance floor, but wouldn't get you in the groove like more traditional doping regimes.
HTH.