A poll about a poll

[Mambo95]

And glad you mentioned Calis field. Because the races you said were similar, had greater fields.

I wasn't comparing the fields, just saying that while ToC had a low ranking, it had a high class field. (You missed the likes of Cavendish, Boonen, Hesjedal, Sagan and Martin btw).

Why can't you accept that some people enjoyed it? Is it because it's American rather than European?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Paris-Nice is also the first time in the season that the big stage racers and stars come out to play for serious in a season, so lots of fans want to see it for that reason.

I wasn't comparing the fields, just saying that while ToC had a low ranking, it had a high class field. (You missed the likes of Cavendish, Boonen, Hesjedal, Sagan and Martin btw).

Why can't you accept that some people enjoyed it? Is it because it's American rather than European?

California wasn't as bad a race as it's made out to be - but because it hyped itself so much, it seemed far worse in comparison because it sought to compare itself to things it had no business comparing it to. So quit with the victim mentality. It's not because it's "American" per se (as in in America), it's because it manages to fulfil a lot of the negative stereotypes we have about America - loud, self-important, but totally unaware that it everybody else doesn't view it the way it views itself.

 

[hfer07]

I can only imagine 4 powerful reasons for that poll result:
1-) CN is getting paid by AToC
2-) CN has some involvement with AToC & their Sponsors
3-) CN needs to do it in order to get Press access & Privileges when the race begins
4-) all of the above

 

[The Hitch]

It depends on your criteria. Does the TOC do more for more cycling fans than PN does? I think the answer is absolutely yes. For fans all the way down the coast of California, the TOC is their big chance to see the highest level of professional riders racing on the roads they love. P-N is an excellent race perhaps, but it's not as meaningful to so many.

So it's about more than about the course stats and the entry list. It's also about the impact the race has on people. The TOC iwas vast improvement over the wasteland that was US professional stage racing for the preceding 20 years. I don't think PN can say anything close.

So different voters have different criteria. Sampling these criteria, not simply matching candidates against fixed criteria, is part of the reason to have a vote.

If thats your argument then TOC falls behind the biggest race outside europe - Vuelta a Colombia, which is the biggest race in a cycling mad country, and maybe Volta Portugal.

 

[Mambo95]

California wasn't as bad a race as it's made out to be - but because it hyped itself so much, it seemed far worse in comparison because it sought to compare itself to things it had no business comparing it to. So quit with the victim mentality. It's not because it's "American" per se (as in in America), it's because it manages to fulfil a lot of the negative stereotypes we have about America - loud, self-important, but totally unaware that it everybody else doesn't view it the way it views itself.

What victim mentality?

I was just suggesting that some of the negativity towards the race may because it is in the US rather than a traditional cycling country.

So they hype it up a bit. So what. That's the sports industry for you. Some other races could do with a bit of hype. If you buy into it, then more fool you.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What victim mentality?

I was just suggesting that some of the negativity towards the race may because it is in the US rather than a traditional cycling country.

So they hype it up a bit. So what. That's the sports industry for you. Some other races could do with a bit of hype. If you buy into it, then more fool you.

The problem is, none of us are buying into it, which makes is feel like they're taking us for idiots when they continue to do it.

The negativity towards the race is not because it is in the US. Where it is is irrelevant, if a race promotes itself the way California has it is going to draw the ire of a lot of fans. If the Deutschlandtour tried to present itself as being as important as the Vuelta it would raise irritation from fans. If the Tour of Austria tried to present itself as competition to the Grand Tours it would be answered with ridicule - and the Österreichrundfahrt has a much better parcours than the Tour of California.

The Tour of California has been treated like the golden child by the UCI, they've given it every possible advantage. And Paris-Nice is still more important, more secure, more prestigious, more interesting, more exciting, and more popular.

 

[The Hitch]

I wasn't comparing the fields, just saying that while ToC had a low ranking, it had a high class field. (You missed the likes of Cavendish, Boonen, Hesjedal, Sagan and Martin btw).

Why can't you accept that some people enjoyed it? Is it because it's American rather than European?

Stop projecting views on to me. Theres nothing i cant accept. I said that Paris Nice was better than TOC. Most who watched both agree. What cant i accept?

And why would i hate a race for being America. Im not anti American at all. I would love for a good race in America, with mountains, high quality fields and good racing.

I dont hate the TOC. I felt it was a boring race compared to all others. And i dislike that people high up in cycling are trying to hurt the Giro and Vuelta to build up ATOC. For that reason i guess there will be some truimph when Cali fails to do this, or even if it were to fold as it would be a blow to **** like Mcquaid who say this.

But i dont let emotons cloud my views. My dislike for Cali from a cycling politics perspective does nothing on my views that it was a boring race compared to Paris Nice and others. I would have said the same had that race played out in Pais Vasco, Poland, Colombia, or even 3rd week of the Giro.

 

[djconnel]

I don't see TOC overhyping itself. Here's what it says in the "about" tab on the web page:

The largest cycling event in America, the 2011 Amgen Tour of California is a Tour de France-style cycling road race, presented by AEG, that challenges the world’s top professional cycling teams to compete along a demanding course from May 15-22.

All completely true. Can P-N claim similar? No -- it's not "the largest cycling event in France", not even top two.

And I agree Tour of Col. has a case for being on the poll.

I voted for the Giro, BTW.

 

[Mambo95]

Stop projecting views on to me. Theres nothing i cant accept. I said that Paris Nice was better than TOC. Most who watched both agree. What cant i accept?

I wasn't trying to project views on you, merely asking questions.

But when you started this thread, why single out the ToC rather than the two MTB races (put them in a different category) or the Tour of Oman? Read that again - The Tour of Flippin' Oman, a sprinters race with few decent sprinters and won and lost by EBH's bladder.

Paris-Nice was certainly better than all of these. So was the Tour of Britain.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't see TOC overhyping itself. Here's what it says in the "about" tab on the web page:

The largest cycling event in America, the 2011 Amgen Tour of California is a Tour de France-style cycling road race, presented by AEG, that challenges the world’s top professional cycling teams to compete along a demanding course from May 15-22.

All completely true. Can P-N claim similar? No -- it's not "the largest cycling event in France", not even top two.

And I agree Tour of Col. has a case for being on the poll.

I voted for the Giro, BTW.

And what about the "Fourth Grand Tour" stuff? What about the repeated quotes from Andrew Messick about what he was going to offer?

Too much of it seemed to be centred around the same mistake that all the new motor racing venues keep making. So much of the presentation was about aping the Tour de France (tweedledee and tweedledum on commentary and the endless 'mini-Alpe d'Huez', 'comparable to Alpe d'Huez', 'as much climbing as Alpe d'Huez' every time they got to an upward gradient certainly didn't help here, as if Alpe d'Huez is the only climb in the history of the Grand Tours). All well and good, because you want to aim for the best and all that - but part of what makes the Tour de France what it is is that it's... well... in France. California, it won't have escaped your attention, is not France. So why not take only a few things from the Tour de France, and try to showcase what California DOES have to offer? There's some stunning scenery and good terrain in California. You could have a stunning race over there - but the current AToC isn't it. Rather than draw a line of best fit of trying to imitate the Tour as best as you can, the way to increase credibility is through good presentation (the market hype taken aside, the Tour of California did this very, very well but was harmed by television companies leaving the race before the finish and the weather, which just added to the farce) and building your own identity - the race should bring something unique to the calendar, a feel of what American racing can or should be about but with top European pros; at the moment it seems like the European pros being in America is seen as enough in and of itself.

 

[Winterfold]

LOL

Good poll Hitch you flushed a few new ones out

Paris-Nice is THE week stage race

Not only does it symbolise racing in s/sleeves and shorts and herald nice weather but it is a stage race that is genuinely competitive and not for training like eg Dauphine which should be fantastic but the big names are usually holding back ( although the valv- cuddles ding **** 2 yrs ago was v entertaining)

 

[isayic]

Paris-Nice was like the last couple of years the best one week stage race out there.

The TOC was boring.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

It depends on your criteria. Does the TOC do more for more cycling fans than PN does? I think the answer is absolutely yes. For fans all the way down the coast of California, the TOC is their big chance to see the highest level of professional riders racing on the roads they love. P-N is an excellent race perhaps, but it's not as meaningful to so many.

I find it difficult to express just how much I disagree. The Tour of California is meaningful to more people than Paris-Nice? Really? You have heard of Europe, right?

LS, you got to remember, there are a LOT of ppl in California still suffering from the long term effects of...er, the 1960's.

 

[Anonymous]

Dim this is a really disapointing responce. I didnt ask if TOC deserved to be in 3rd place. I asked if it deserved to be in the poll in the first place ahead of PARIS NICE. You know that race where Contador faced Valverde, Frank Schleck, Samuel Sanchez, Joaquim Rodriguez on good climbs.

Yeh, i complete misread the question in the poll. I thought the question was did it deserve to be third. The question was did it deserve to be on the shortlist in the first place.

On that basis Id like to change my vote

 

[Winterfold]

I struggle to imagine a more innocuous rude word than d0ng...

I agree with Libertine above that Cali could host a great and beautiful stage race with it's terrain

But it's California dude the spiritual home of MTB and the step mother of surfing and all other freeride sports

Getting intense and tactical and suffering is never really going to be at home there

(with no disrespect to So/NoCal roadies - I am just thinking of what the public at large will come out to see in force)

 

[Mambo95]

LOL

Good poll Hitch you flushed a few new ones out

Paris-Nice is THE week stage race

Who are these 'new ones' of which you speak?

I'd say you're too new to remember the days when Paris-Nice was a Sean Kelly exhibition race.

You were a 'new one' once. It's wise to remember that.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

As for the poll question. No. The ToC had more big names in it last edition than previous years, and so it is getting better. But not more big names in the start list than say Paris-Nice. Below is my quick short start list from both of those races:

FROM VELONEWS AMGEN TOC START LIST
1. Levi Leipheimer (United States)
2. Lance Armstrong (United States)
3. Michael Rogers (Australia)
4. Mark Cavendish (United Kingdom)
5. Andy Schleck (Luxembourg)
6. Fabian Cancellara (Switzerland)
7. Jens Voigt (Germany)
8. Stuart O’Grady’ (Australia)
9. Lars Boom (Netherlands)
10. Tom Boonen (Belgium)
11. George Hincapie (United States)

FROM PARIS-NICE START LIST
1. Luis-Leon Sanchez
2. Alejandro Valverde
3. Frank Schleck
4. Jakob Fuglsang
5. Richie Porte
6. Jens Voigt
7. Sylvain Chavanel
8. Alberto Contador
9. Oscar Pereiro
10. Tony Martin
11. André Greipel
12. Roman Kreuziger
13. Heinrich Haussler
14. Jurgen Van Den Broeck
15. Philippe Gilbert

 

[The Hitch]

As for the poll question. No. The ToC had more big names in it last edition than previous years, and so it is getting better. But not more big names in the start list than say Paris-Nice. Below is my quick short start list from both of those races:

FROM VELONEWS AMGEN TOC START LIST
1. Levi Leipheimer (United States)
2. Lance Armstrong (United States)
3. Michael Rogers (Australia)
4. Mark Cavendish (United Kingdom)
5. Andy Schleck (Luxembourg)
6. Fabian Cancellara (Switzerland)
7. Jens Voigt (Germany)
8. Stuart O’Grady’ (Australia)
9. Lars Boom (Netherlands)
10. Tom Boonen (Belgium)
11. George Hincapie (United States)

FROM PARIS-NICE START LIST
1. Luis-Leon Sanchez
2. Alejandro Valverde
3. Frank Schleck
4. Jakob Fuglsang
5. Richie Porte
6. Jens Voigt
7. Sylvain Chavanel
8. Alberto Contador
9. Oscar Pereiro
10. Tony Martin
11. André Greipel
12. Roman Kreuziger
13. Heinrich Haussler
14. Jurgen Van Den Broeck
15. Philippe Gilbert

what the hell.

You do not have the great one.

Samu Sanchez> your entire TOC list except andrew and Cancellara.

You also left out Levi even though you put him on TOC list and you left out Purito. You could argue Purito wasnt that big in March but then wtf is Porte doing there.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

what the hell.

You do not have the great one.

Samu Sanchez> your TOC list except andrew and Cancellara.

You also left out Levi even though you put him on TOC list and you left out Purito. You could argue Purito wasnt that big in March but then wtf is Porte doing there.

Yeup, I figured I'd get lacquered for something. All I can say it was a quick list... I probably hit the down arrow one too many time with block select on.

 

[Mambo95]

As for the poll question. No. The ToC had more big names in it last edition than previous years, and so it is getting better. But not more big names in the start list than say Paris-Nice. Below is my quick short start list from both of those races:

FROM VELONEWS AMGEN TOC START LIST
1. Levi Leipheimer (United States)
2. Lance Armstrong (United States)
3. Michael Rogers (Australia)
4. Mark Cavendish (United Kingdom)
5. Andy Schleck (Luxembourg)
6. Fabian Cancellara (Switzerland)
7. Jens Voigt (Germany)
8. Stuart O’Grady’ (Australia)
9. Lars Boom (Netherlands)
10. Tom Boonen (Belgium)
11. George Hincapie (United States)

FROM PARIS-NICE START LIST
1. Luis-Leon Sanchez
2. Alejandro Valverde
3. Frank Schleck
4. Jakob Fuglsang
5. Richie Porte
6. Jens Voigt
7. Sylvain Chavanel
8. Alberto Contador
9. Oscar Pereiro
10. Tony Martin
11. André Greipel
12. Roman Kreuziger
13. Heinrich Haussler
14. Jurgen Van Den Broeck
15. Philippe Gilbert

Of your P-N list, Fuglsang, Martin and Haussler also went to California.

(I'm not debating that ToC was better than P-N. It wasn't)

 

[Ferminal]

I don't see TOC overhyping itself. Here's what it says in the "about" tab on the web page:

The largest cycling event in Australia, the 2011 Santos Tour Down Under is a Tour de France-style cycling road race, presented by the SA Government, that challenges the world’s top professional cycling teams to compete along a demanding course from Jan 18-23.

All completely true. Can P-N claim similar? No -- it's not "the largest cycling event in France", not even top two.

And I agree Tour of Col. has a case for being on the poll.

I voted for the Giro, BTW.

Why wasn't the TDU in the poll? You can write the same bullcrud about any race.

 

[Winterfold]

Who are these 'new ones' of which you speak?

I'd say you're too new to remember the days when Paris-Nice was a Sean Kelly exhibition race.

You were a 'new one' once. It's wise to remember that.

While I agree with your last point I am * plenty * old enough to remember Sean Kelly - I was just amused by some of the defence of TOC over Paris-Nice

 

[Jancouver]

I would like to ask all those jealous anti American haters that voted NO for a big favor.

PLEASE DO NOT WATCH, DISCUSS, READ ANYTHING RELATED TO ToC AND DO NOT COMMENT ON ToC.

Thank You!

PS I voted Yes because it is a good race with variety of stages. Nothing boring like TDU, Tour of Poland, Tour of England, Turkey, Tours of Arabia, India etc

 

[Ferminal]

I would like to ask all those jealous anti American haters that voted NO for a big favor.

PLEASE DO NOT WATCH, DISCUSS, READ ANYTHING RELATED TO ToC AND DO NOT COMMENT ON ToC.

Thank You!

PS I voted Yes because it is a good race with variety of stages. Nothing boring like TDU, Tour of Poland, Tour of England, Turkey, Tours of Arabia, India etc

So did you watch P-N or did you just vote "Yes" anyway?

If you didn't watch both races the only response could possibly be "Maybe" or "I don't know".

 

[Hmmmmm]

I would like to ask all those jealous anti American haters that voted NO for a big favor.

PLEASE DO NOT WATCH, DISCUSS, READ ANYTHING RELATED TO ToC AND DO NOT COMMENT ON ToC.

Thank You!

PS I voted Yes because it is a good race with variety of stages. Nothing boring like TDU, Tour of Poland, Tour of England, Turkey, Tours of Arabia, India etc

WTF? I voted No.