A Second Chance

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theswordsman said:
I think that if the sport itself dictates the punishment, once that punishment is over, they should be treated by the powers that be like anyone else...

There was a famous study of Olympic athletes a lot of years ago. People were asked if there was something they could take that would help them win a gold medal, but severely shorten their life, would they do it. Way too many people said yes. If people are willing to die many years early in order to achieve what they consider success, I doubt that two years off instead of four would change things...
I am not aware of the study to which you refer. There was a more recent study by Hoffman

A confidential self-report survey was administered to 3248 students representing grades 8-12 in 12 states in the continental United States by their teachers during homeroom or physical education class.

It would be interesting to hear what the average (if there is such a thing!) Olympic athlete might actually say. And to be clear most Olympic athletes do not take PED and that's not to say that a significant number probably do! I think the health issue is bogus or at least overstated. The extreme amount of training (and controlled abuse) athletes give their bodies to attain peak performance is not exactly 'healthy' in any case.

I believe everyone deserves a second chance. I used to believe that if an athlete got caught doping at the Olympics they shouldn't be allowed to compete at the Games again even after serving their ban. I still feel that way but I am wondering if it's a little hypocritical to talk about second chances and at the same time apply some limits or constraints.
 
A

Anonymous

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Im still confused as to how we are discussing doping out of the clinic.. :confused:
 

Dr. Maserati

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To answer your opening post.
Consistencey - whatever rules are in place should be applied to all.

Susan Westemeyer said:
As has been pointed out before, a lot depends on the personality of the rider involved. There are some riders who are just not well-liked for a variety of reasons not related to doping.

So that may also be a reason why a team is not willing to sign a rider, whether he is returning from a doping suspension or not.

Susan
Riders that are not well liked will always struggle to get a team - however it seems odd when a rider is on a big team and then returns and appears to be shunned by all teams (even lesser teams than they had enjoyed).

But is the issue more to do with being a 'troublemaker' than just their personality?
 

Dr. Maserati

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Mambo95 said:
He returned in March 2010. Teams had spent their budget. They're not going to extend it for him.

As it happened, this so-called blacklist lasted 5 months and he signed for Vacansoleil (would have signed for Quick Step if riders like Pineau hadn't objected quite publicly). But the UCI were so outraged at the breaking of the blacklist that they spurned his new team.

Oh no, they didn't, did they. They gave them a ProTour licence ahead of a team with four GT wins on its roster.

The blacklist doesn't exist. It only exists in the minds of fans of riders who aren't getting hired and the tin-foil hat brigade in the Clinic section.
If the Blacklist does not exist why did Pat McQuaid want Rasmussen to (quote) "fuck off"?

In February Rasmussen emailed Pat McQuaid -seeking clarification as Vinokourov told Rasmussen he wanted to sign him for the Astana team but he was told not to "by the President".

After being ignored for a week Rasmussen emailed McQuaid again - the followig day he received an email from McQuaid (which he obviously meant to send to his secetary) "this makes me even more want to tell him to Fuck Off, but give me a couple of words which says the same and gets him off my back."

Also in Verner Moller book he states the following:
Andrei Tchmill of Katusha, wished to sign Rasmussen, but the UCI forwarded Katusha with a list of riders that they were not to sign, the list included, Gusev, Sinkewitz, Kashechkin, Heras, Hamilton, Landis and Mancebo.

Gianetti of Footon Servetto, also offered Rasmussen a contract, but Rumpf (UCI CEO) told Gianetti, not to sign him .
 
Jul 2, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
If the Blacklist does not exist why did Pat McQuaid want Rasmussen to (quote) "fuck off"?

In February Rasmussen emailed Pat McQuaid -seeking clarification as Vinokourov told Rasmussen he wanted to sign him for the Astana team but he was told not to "by the President".

After being ignored for a week Rasmussen emailed McQuaid again - the followig day he received an email from McQuaid (which he obviously meant to send to his secetary) "this makes me even more want to tell him to Fuck Off, but give me a couple of words which says the same and gets him off my back."

Also in Verner Moller book he states the following:
Andrei Tchmill of Katusha, wished to sign Rasmussen, but the UCI forwarded Katusha with a list of riders that they were not to sign, the list included, Gusev, Sinkewitz, Kashechkin, Heras, Hamilton, Landis and Mancebo.

Gianetti of Footon Servetto, also offered Rasmussen a contract, but Rumpf (UCI CEO) told Gianetti, not to sign him .
Personally I don't believe a word that comes out of Rasmussen's mouth. I think he's a fantasist. If you think he's honest and trustworthy, then that's your prerogative.

Of the alleged blacklist you listed, two are on ProTour teams and Sinkewitz is at ISD. The others are 34 years old or over. Hardly prospects for the future.
It would appear that this blacklist, if it exists, doesn't actually have any influence.
 
May 26, 2010
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Mambo95 said:
Personally I don't believe a word that comes out of Rasmussen's mouth. I think he's a fantasist. If you think he's honest and trustworthy, then that's your prerogative.

Of the alleged blacklist you listed, two are on ProTour teams and Sinkewitz is at ISD. The others are 34 years old or over. Hardly prospects for the future.
It would appear that this blacklist, if it exists, doesn't actually have any influence.
doesn't stop teams signing riders anymore! Petacchi 37, Di Luca 35, Sastre 36, Vino 37, McEwen 38, Voight 39 to name a few elder statesmen of the peleton

There is something about Rasmussen but what the truth is i haven't heard.
 
Nov 24, 2010
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auscyclefan94 said:
Second chance, I would be more willing to accept that a rider has come back clean if a 4 year ban was served.
Totally agree. After 4 years, a rider on his second chance has had a lot of time to ponder "what if !"

Michael R well, his alleged activities with bk combined with his previous history, I can understand why a top tier team has not given him a second chance. I think at the end of the day, all decisions should keep the sponsors in a very satisfied and happy state of mind. Without their financial support, there is no team.

cheers dallas
 
Nov 9, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
There is something about Rasmussen but what the truth is i haven't heard.

Agree with that one. IMO, the biggest crime Rasmussen ever commited wasnt lying about his WAI, or caused dirt to the yellow jersey, nor was it sueing his former team.

The biggest crime Rasmussen commited was exploiding the flaws of the Anti Doping Rules, hence he made those powerful men Mr. McQuaid and Prudhomme looked like fools who had no clue about their own rules.

And the blacklist? Honestly I wont be surpriced if it exist. After all were talking about a president who believes "donations" from a certain rider isnt bribery.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Mambo95 said:
Personally I don't believe a word that comes out of Rasmussen's mouth. I think he's a fantasist. If you think he's honest and trustworthy, then that's your prerogative.

Of the alleged blacklist you listed, two are on ProTour teams and Sinkewitz is at ISD. The others are 34 years old or over. Hardly prospects for the future.
It would appear that this blacklist, if it exists, doesn't actually have any influence.
There is your problem right there Mambo.

You dismiss Rasmussens opinion because its from Rasmussen - thats your prerogative.
I prefer to see if what they say stands up to scrutiny before I dismiss what people say - so it is strange how you dismiss how Tchmill, Vinokourov and Gianetti confirmed Rasmussen was Blacklisted.


Again - Sinkerwitz was signed by a ProConti team (that has now become ProTeam) and Gusev was removed from the Blacklist when he threatened to sue the UCI for damages as the UCI had assisted Astana in sidelining him from the sport.

But Gusev had a trump card. He could sue UCI for damages. A new civil trial threatened to be long and expensive and Pat McQuaid devised a plan. According to Weekendavisen’s sources he suggested Gusev a deal. If the Russian did not demand compensation from the UCI, Pat McQuaid would in turn help him find a team. The 27-year-old Russian would rather ride than to spend the rest of his cycling career in the courtrooms. He said yes.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
doesn't stop teams signing riders anymore! Petacchi 37, Di Luca 35, Sastre 36, Vino 37, McEwen 38, Voight 39 to name a few elder statesmen of the peleton
Sastre, McEwen and Voigt haven't missed two years. Petacchi only missed four months of racing. Astana is Vino's team. We'll see what happens with DiLuca, but Lampre are one of the few teams that will hire an ex-doper.

My point about age only applied to riders who had missed two years through a doping ban. Hiring them back when they're over 30 and they've had two years out is high risk, mainly because they're unlikely to get anywhere near their previous level. It's risk barely any team is willing to take.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Also in Verner Moller book he states the following:
Andrei Tchmill of Katusha, wished to sign Rasmussen, but the UCI forwarded Katusha with a list of riders that they were not to sign, the list included, Gusev, Sinkewitz, Kashechkin, Heras, Hamilton, Landis and Mancebo.

Gianetti of Footon Servetto, also offered Rasmussen a contract, but Rumpf (UCI CEO) told Gianetti, not to sign him .
If this is true then I applaud the UCI for trying to keep rotten riders out of the peloton. The only objection I have is whether they are selective about it or not. I wonder if they ever took any steps to try and keep Basso or Scarponi out of the peloton in the same way.

It's unfortunate that they don't succeed fully though.
 

Dr. Maserati

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ingsve said:
If this is true then I applaud the UCI for trying to keep rotten riders out of the peloton. The only objection I have is whether they are selective about it or not. I wonder if they ever took any steps to try and keep Basso or Scarponi out of the peloton in the same way.

It's unfortunate that they don't succeed fully though.
But this is the problem - the agreement that the UCI had with the ProTour teams not to sign a rider for a further 2 years after their sanction ended was ignored for the signing of Basso.

Mancebo is on the Blacklist even though he was never sanctioned.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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i haven't had a chance to read the whole thread but judging by the several posts i read it seems like people assume there is some uci black list based on nothing else but vindictiveness or spite... i very much doubt that.

i believe there is certainly some uci nontransparent attempt at 'bossing'' the teams through rider selections available for signing. it is one of the uci (or better said, the uci, president's) power asserting tools

the weird, totally nontransparent method by which the uci grants pt licenses is another of those power asserting tools. it is stupid and really hurtful to cycling as a sport in the family of olympic sports.

but that the way it is.

our sport is sick.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
If the Blacklist does not exist why did Pat McQuaid want Rasmussen to (quote) "fuck off"?

In February Rasmussen emailed Pat McQuaid -seeking clarification as Vinokourov told Rasmussen he wanted to sign him for the Astana team but he was told not to "by the President".

After being ignored for a week Rasmussen emailed McQuaid again - the followig day he received an email from McQuaid (which he obviously meant to send to his secetary) "this makes me even more want to tell him to Fuck Off, but give me a couple of words which says the same and gets him off my back."

Also in Verner Moller book he states the following:
Andrei Tchmill of Katusha, wished to sign Rasmussen, but the UCI forwarded Katusha with a list of riders that they were not to sign, the list included, Gusev, Sinkewitz, Kashechkin, Heras, Hamilton, Landis and Mancebo.

Gianetti of Footon Servetto, also offered Rasmussen a contract, but Rumpf (UCI CEO) told Gianetti, not to sign him .
Remember last year Rasmussen had signed with Ceramica Flaminia but they were told that it would be unwise to sign him.
 
Jul 12, 2009
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python said:
i

but that the way it is.

our sport is sick.
It really is, and shamelessly so. I rarely check out forums because of the all the behind the scenes "no it all" behavior. The completely idiotic remarks from team management and most of the pro riders comments on drug related issues.

When it comes to hear say, one thing I've learned; no matter how much you think you know or what you've heard, you've more than likely got it wrong. So after a while you learn to show some restraint.

Do you guys talk about this **** on your training rides? We hardly ever talk about this stuff. It's mostly about the moment.

It's so weird. I love cycling and racing very much. It used to mean something, like at a gathering or a party, people would hear you're into it and they would immediately mention all the health benefits. But now, they ask what kind of drugs am I on and who's taking what because of all the media hype. It's a joke.

I am however, really looking forward to going out on the road tomorrow.
 
bridgeman said:
Do you guys talk about this **** on your training rides? We hardly ever talk about this stuff. It's mostly about the moment.
Since I live in NYC, the conversations while riding are almost always yuppie work-related, which is why I don't participate.

I could care less if Doug from Accounting made VP before the age of 30.

Doping in cycling fascinates me for some reason. So to the Clinic I go to indulge.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
If the Blacklist does not exist why did Pat McQuaid want Rasmussen to (quote) "fuck off"?

In February Rasmussen emailed Pat McQuaid -seeking clarification as Vinokourov told Rasmussen he wanted to sign him for the Astana team but he was told not to "by the President".

After being ignored for a week Rasmussen emailed McQuaid again - the followig day he received an email from McQuaid (which he obviously meant to send to his secetary) "this makes me even more want to tell him to Fuck Off, but give me a couple of words which says the same and gets him off my back."

Also in Verner Moller book he states the following:
Andrei Tchmill of Katusha, wished to sign Rasmussen, but the UCI forwarded Katusha with a list of riders that they were not to sign, the list included, Gusev, Sinkewitz, Kashechkin, Heras, Hamilton, Landis and Mancebo.

Gianetti of Footon Servetto, also offered Rasmussen a contract, but Rumpf (UCI CEO) told Gianetti, not to sign him .
Thanks for posting this Doc! I knew that I had read about this circumstance regarding an interaction between McQuaid and Rassmussen and the alleged list that some of us suspected actually existed.
 

MadonePro

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auscyclefan94 said:
Ottherwise i will never accept rasmussen as a trustworthy or clean rider
Let's remember, Rasmussen was never charged, or found guilty of doping offences, nor did he post a negative sample.

I don't like the guy on many fronts, and yet I here from mates back in Oz, that he's a nice bloke.

Oh and what's with the sig, breaking news to Australia, little bit up the trees aren't you mate, or do I call you Rob Arnold?
 
Oct 20, 2010
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ACF94, too nationalistic for his own good. Probably wouldn't have as big of a man crush on Cadel if he wasn't an Aussie and clings to any rider from his home soil...

FC - Officially the first person to make coffee this morning!
 
Christian said:
If there is a blacklist, Patrick Sinkewitz is on it. I'd love to see him come back but I doubt it'll ever happen. He said too much ...
I agree that whistle blowers are treated most unfairly. Sinkewitz, Simeoni, Manzano and Kohl never got back into a big team.

As for Rasmussen, I simply don't believe that no top team wanted to sign him. After all he was one of the best climbers, and he's the same age as Vinokourov. Of course he's a disaster in public relations, but at least he made the mountain stages exciting with his attacks.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Susan Westemeyer said:
What does it mean to you, and what do you think it means in cycling?

Susan
I don't think it really matters, as it appears that you believe the UCI and current system offers a level playing field to those who race within it. We can look at the Fuyi Li and Alberto Contador situations as an example. Both riders were caught with the same amount of Clenbuterol in their bodies. One rider was immediately declared persona-non-grata and the other was given several months of reprieve because of who he is.

The UCI is far from an objective governing body, so none of this really matters.
 

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