A thread on Indurain's doping

[Stingray34]

Okay, fire away on Indurain.



......hello?

 

[hrotha]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=10938
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=9214

 

[Exroadman24902]

hmmm where to start..we can analyse Indurain as we do studies of Lance's physiology. I think Lance's progress is about as believeable

Indurain 6-foot-2 and weighed 190 pounds..12 stone 7lbs according to other sources, a non climber till 27. Discuss. Indurain only concended just under 2 minutes to Pantani in the 1995 Alpe Dhuez ascent in 1995..it was a high 38 minute ascent..as fast as Lance and Ullrich..

 

[L'arriviste]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=10938
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=9214

hmmm where to start..we can analyse Indurain as we do studies of Lance's physiology. I think Lance's progress is about as believeable

Indurain 6-foot-2 and weighed 190 pounds..12 stone 7lbs according to other sources, a non climber till 27. Discuss. Indurain only concended just under 2 minutes to Pantani in the 1995 Alpe Dhuez ascent in 1995..it was a high 38 minute ascent..as fast as Lance and Ullrich..

Hasn't this been adequately addressed already per hrotha's links?

 

[Exroadman24902]

Hasn't this been adequately addressed already per hrotha's links?

But Mig was a gent so gets an easier rider than he perhaps deserves. Remember that insane time trial when he and oddly enough a 2nd rate ride De Las Cuevas thrashed the field in the 1992 tour de France TT in Luxembourg. Its odd how two team mates take first in second. Sickens me like Piepoli and Ricco thrashing everyone in the Pyrenees in 2008-as Lemond points out, Indurain arguably may not deserve the benefit of the doubt either.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Indurain, doper. Yup............next?

 

[blutto]

hmmm where to start..we can analyse Indurain as we do studies of Lance's physiology. I think Lance's progress is about as believeable

Indurain 6-foot-2 and weighed 190 pounds..12 stone 7lbs according to other sources, a non climber till 27. Discuss. Indurain only concended just under 2 minutes to Pantani in the 1995 Alpe Dhuez ascent in 1995..it was a high 38 minute ascent..as fast as Lance and Ullrich..

...he raced @ 172lb during his glory days and yes he had an admitted weight problem which he had to work hard to deal with....and he did have some gawd given gifts that were tailor made for endurance events...his lung capacity for instance, was reputed to be something like 11.4 li ( which is about 70% larger than the norm for his physiology..)...great VO2Max ( in the low 90's )....he wasn't a mule as you seem to infer...more a fat thorough-bred..

...and he did have form/results before he was allowed to race as a leader (...for instance, he beat LeMond on a mountain-top finish in the TDF prior to his string of TDF wins...so he was no slouch on hills..)...he actually did rather well at the Tour of l'Avenir in 86 at his larger weight and then was used as a super-domestique for Delgado till 91...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Exroadman24902]

...he raced @ 172lb during his glory days and yes he had an admitted weight problem which he had to work hard to deal with....and he did have some gawd given gifts that were tailor made for endurance events...his lung capacity for instance, was reputed to be something like 11.4 li ( which is about 70% larger than the norm for his physiology..)...great VO2Max ( in the low 90's )....he wasn't a mule as you seem to infer...more a fat thorough-bred..

...and he did have form/results before he was allowed to race as a leader (...for instance, he beat LeMond on a mountain-top finish in the TDF prior to his string of TDF wins...so he was no slouch on hills..)...he actually did rather well at the Tour of l'Avenir in 86 at his larger weight and then was used as a super-domestique for Delgado till 91...

Cheers

blutto

he left the field of riders 4 or 5 minutes back in 1992 in one TT alone and was one of the fastest climbers in the world..but where were the signs of this in 1980s? There was a huge difference between the Indurain of 89 and the Indurain of 92. Someone of his weight doing some of the fastest ever ascents on record on Alpe D'huez. Lemond said grand tour GC guys show it earlier on, like Lemond, Roche, Fignon did...Indurain was 5 years a non climber and then boom

 

[ergmonkey]

Performances don't tell you whether a rider is a doper.

Using doping doctors, however, does give a pretty clear picture.

So, might as well cut out the highly selective comparisons of racing results and just check out who Indurain's doctors were (i.e. read Hrotha's linked-to threads).

 

[Exroadman24902]

Performances don't tell you whether a rider is a doper.

Using doping doctors, however, does give a pretty clear picture.

So, might as well cut out the highly selective comparisons of racing results and just check out who Indurain's doctors were (i.e. read Hrotha's linked-to threads).

so where would that say, leave Bernard Hinault-a customer of Francois Bellocq? It looked midly sympathetic coverage of the Indurain myth in those threads

 

[ChrisE]

...he raced @ 172lb during his glory days and yes he had an admitted weight problem which he had to work hard to deal with....and he did have some gawd given gifts that were tailor made for endurance events...his lung capacity for instance, was reputed to be something like 11.4 li ( which is about 70% larger than the norm for his physiology..)...great VO2Max ( in the low 90's )....he wasn't a mule as you seem to infer...more a fat thorough-bred..

...and he did have form/results before he was allowed to race as a leader (...for instance, he beat LeMond on a mountain-top finish in the TDF prior to his string of TDF wins...so he was no slouch on hills..)...he actually did rather well at the Tour of l'Avenir in 86 at his larger weight and then was used as a super-domestique for Delgado till 91...

Cheers

blutto

He won Avenir in 86. I have a book by John Wilcockson "World of Cycling" that describes this actual race. Grewal was such a waste of talent.

Looking at his results he had many before he started winning the tour. Paris-Nice, San Sebastian, Crit Int, Avenir. Indurain's poor placings in the tour leading up to his wins show a steady climb. IMO he could have podiumed in 1990 if not for the Delgado loyalty, and he seemed clearly stronger that GL that day up to Luz Ardiden from my memory of watching it on TV, though I haven't seen it since and that was 20 years ago.

Note his talent was being shown prior to the EPO era as I have noted. I don't think it is fair to say Indurain was a product of EPO. Based upon the physical data you quoted maybe he was just a freak. I think he obviously took it when it became popular, but was he on it for his first or second win?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

so where would that say, leave Bernard Hinault-a customer of Francois Bellocq? It looked midly sympathetic coverage of the Indurain myth in those threads

Wow - you read both Indurain threads with in excess of 100 posts each in the last 50 minutes as well as managed to squeeze out some posts. Impressive.

 

[Stingray34]

Note his talent was being shown prior to the EPO era as I have noted. I don't think it is fair to say Indurain was a product of EPO. Based upon the physical data you quoted maybe he was just a freak. I think he obviously took it when it became popular, but was he on it for his first or second win?

He was trained by Conconi. What is Conconi good at? Do you think he reserved the bin Rx for the Italian mama's boys?

 

[redtreviso]

He won Avenir in 86. I have a book by John Wilcockson "World of Cycling" that describes this actual race. Grewal was such a waste of talent.

Looking at his results he had many before he started winning the tour. Paris-Nice, San Sebastian, Crit Int, Avenir. Indurain's poor placings in the tour leading up to his wins show a steady climb. IMO he could have podiumed in 1990 if not for the Delgado loyalty, and he seemed clearly stronger that GL that day up to Luz Ardiden from my memory of watching it on TV, though I haven't seen it since and that was 20 years ago.

Note his talent was being shown prior to the EPO era as I have noted. I don't think it is fair to say Indurain was a product of EPO. Based upon the physical data you quoted maybe he was just a freak. I think he obviously took it when it became popular, but was he on it for his first or second win?

GL was grinding and gutting it out on Luz Ardiden and Indurain just sat on, then rode away easily.. To me that was the moment the EPO era was born.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjj5137yKM

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He won Avenir in 86. I have a book by John Wilcockson "World of Cycling" that describes this actual race. Grewal was such a waste of talent.

Looking at his results he had many before he started winning the tour. Paris-Nice, San Sebastian, Crit Int, Avenir. Indurain's poor placings in the tour leading up to his wins show a steady climb. IMO he could have podiumed in 1990 if not for the Delgado loyalty, and he seemed clearly stronger that GL that day up to Luz Ardiden from my memory of watching it on TV, though I haven't seen it since and that was 20 years ago.

Note his talent was being shown prior to the EPO era as I have noted. I don't think it is fair to say Indurain was a product of EPO. Based upon the physical data you quoted maybe he was just a freak. I think he obviously took it when it became popular, but was he on it for his first or second win?

Correct - why I remember Indurain in l'Avenir is because all the attention in Winning magazine at that time was devoted to Grewel finishing second and being the next big thing from the US.
Migs win was almost overlooked.

So he wasn't someone who just dramatically appeared. Although he certainly jumped a level in the early 90's.

 

[ChrisE]

He was trained by Conconi. What is Conconi good at? Do you think he reserved the bin Rx for the Italian mama's boys?

No I don't think that at all. My post was about his results leading up to the EPO era, that displayed his talent. I think there is some who believe he was a product of EPO but I don't buy that.

He had results both before and after the introduction to EPO, and just because he didn't win the tour prior to 91 is not that big of a deal IMO because he was young. He was 27 when he won his first tour, right in the wheelhouse of when GT riders started excelling prior to that time. His physical attributes are insane and well documented.

Perhaps Rominger is the one that spurred him to use EPO. I think Rominger may have been the tipping point for peloton wide use. He was the first that showed cracks in Indurain.

I am not a fan of Indurain. I found him boring. He beat my boy at the time GL. But, I think we should look at his results and his career objectively taking into account what we think we know about the introduction of EPO.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

Mig was totally clean. According to Joe Freil, he lost weight and became more efficient on the bike. Isn't that how all the top riders transform themselves.

 

[ChrisE]

Correct - why I remember Indurain in l'Avenir is because all the attention in Winning magazine at that time was devoted to Grewel finishing second and being the next big thing from the US.
Migs win was almost overlooked.

So he wasn't someone who just dramatically appeared. Although he certainly jumped a level in the early 90's.

It's always like that doc....the next big "American" thing. I am unclear on why we feel we are the center of the universe.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

No I don't think that at all. My post was about his results leading up to the EPO era, that displayed his talent. I think there is some who believe he was a product of EPO but I don't buy that.

He had results both before and after the introduction to EPO, and just because he didn't win the tour prior to 91 is not that big of a deal IMO because he was young. He was 27 when he won his first tour, right in the wheelhouse of when GT riders started excelling prior to that time. His physical attributes are insane and well documented.

Perhaps Rominger is the one that spurred him to use EPO. I think Rominger may have been the tipping point for peloton wide use. He was the first that showed cracks in Indurain.

I am not a fan of Indurain. I found him boring. He beat my boy at the time GL. But, I think we should look at his results and his career objectively taking into account what we think we know about the introduction of EPO.

One of the funniest races on tape is the 1993 WC in Columbia. All those wonderful Columbian climbers getting shelled off the back on climbs by the likes of Indurain, Olano and Chiapucci. Liggett's commentary is amusing too. Could anyone really be so clueless?

 

[ChrisE]

Mig was totally clean. According to Joe Freil, he lost weight and became more efficient on the bike. Isn't that how all the top riders transform themselves.

Who said that? I hope you are not implying that I have that position. I am just referring to whether or not he was a donkey/racehorse product of EPO which IMO is debatable.

 

[ChrisE]

One of the funniest races on tape is the 1993 WC in Columbia. All those wonderful Columbian climbers getting shelled off the back on climbs by the likes of Indurain, Olano and Chiapucci. Liggett's commentary is amusing too. Could anyone really be so clueless?

I think that was 95. 93 is when LA won. I agree he was full regimen then.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

Who said that? I hope you are not implying that I have that position. I am just referring to whether or not he was a donkey/racehorse product of EPO which IMO is debatable.

No, I'm not ascribing that position to you. Joe Freil, in one of his training bible books spent about 1 1/2 pages explaining how Indurain could climb so well for a big guy. I think Indurain was a very good rider just as Armstrong was a good rider. I consider that both were using doping products prior to their explosions on the scene as TdF winners. EPO made pigs fly. Hincapie too, in the Pyrenees.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

I think that was 95. 93 is when LA won. I agree he was full regimen then.

Right. Thanks. I'm posting on only one mug of coffee.

 

[ergmonkey]

so where would that say, leave Bernard Hinault-a customer of Francois Bellocq? It looked midly sympathetic coverage of the Indurain myth in those threads

I didn't realize this was a thread about Bernard Hinault.

Personally, I don't know enough about (Dr.?) Francois Bellocq for Hinault's patronage of him to mean much to me. Nor do I really care too much since I don't have an established position regarding Hinault and PEDs.

 

[ChrisE]

No, I'm not ascribing that position to you. Joe Freil, in one of his training bible books spent about 1 1/2 pages explaining how Indurain could climb so well for a big guy. I think Indurain was a very good rider just as Armstrong was a good rider. I consider that both were using doping products prior to their explosions on the scene as TdF winners. EPO made pigs fly. Hincapie too, in the Pyrenees.

Did it? Or did it just move the line in the sand?

That is the great debate in here of course, especially pertaining to LA in terms of his natural talent vs whether EPO bounced him over the others. The "best responder" BS which I find assinine. Indurain's "doping" IMO was on a regimen that was probably pretty consistent with the peloton at the time. I think maybe his early tour victories may have been without EPO. I do not know that obviously, but Indurain was unique physically.

Would he have won the tour if EPO didn't exist, if one concludes he started taking it in 91? Would he have won if doping in general didn't exist? This thread is about his doping, which would imply he had some unfair advantage over his competition. I don't believe that to be the case during his career.