A thread on Indurain's doping

[FoxxyBrown1111]

It's true that the average age of a first-time Tour de France winner was 27 both prior to WWII and after, right up through Indurain's first victory. But, if we look a the multiple-tour winners starting with Bobet, it's 24 yrs old.

Bobet: 28
Anquetil: 23
Merckx: 24
Thévenet: 29
Hinault: 23
Fignon: 22
Lemond: 25

In modern period, the great Tour riders before blood vector doping showed their chops very early. Anquetil won his first tour. So did Merckx in 1969. So did Hinault in 1978. So did Fignon in 1983. Of course, Lemond had to wait for his third tour to win and we all know that story.

Point being that in the modern era, it was expected that a multiple tour winner would show themselves early, not make the sort of steady progression we had with Indurain, who withdrew from his first three tours, then finished low in the rankings until 1989 when he finally cracked the top 20.

I did similar stats, but digged deeper. Looked at when did guys make a podium in a GT.

All got crazy from the 90s on: Indurain, then Rijs, then Armstrong (and Sastre, Vino, etc.) winning GT´s at "old" ages never seen before.

So yes, Indurain was the 1st big Epo-Champ. Everybody knows the new drug helped the "heavy" TTlers.

 

[Martin318is]

However, the point is that two of the largest bodies in the race came first and second, at altitude on a far from flat course. I don't recall any sharp, uneven climbs as one would find in the Pyrenees. Still, it was not a sprinters course and the Colombians were expected to do very well. I guess they either didn't have EPO or didn't think they needed it given their living and training at altitude. Would Olano have won without EPO. I doubt it. Now, flame away for there being no proof that Olano or Indurain used EPO. In the meantime, excuse me. I have to sprinkle fairy dust to attract the wee ones for the party tonight.

Just for some perspective:

I am married to a Colombian whose natural weight is 48kg. We went there the year we were married after she had been down at sea level for about 10 months. At the time i weighed 87kg. When we arrived, I had no altidue effects whatsoever and in fact felt I was able to run faster than normal without breathing harder - whereas she suffered and had to sit down a lot.

This is NOT an argument one way or the other about whether Indurain et al were clean or dirty. I am just trying to point out that weird things happen and they are not directly linearly interpretable - particularly with such little data.

As the saying goes: "If a straight line fit is required, obtain only 2 data points"

 

[Big Doopie]

Bobet: 28
Anquetil: 23
Merckx: 24
Thévenet: 29
Hinault: 23
Fignon: 22
Lemond: 25

thevenet won the tour at the age of 27.

he finished 4th in his second tour at the age of 23 and was 2nd at the age of 25.

he won mountain stages in his first tours as well at a young age.

all during merckx's era.

as for indurain -- on epo without a doubt -- hard to know exactly when. as for his vo2 scores were they done with or without epo. hard to know.

one thing is for sure. he was 17th 1.39 minutes on lemond in the versailles TT of 1989 when he was 24 -- not exactly the early natural awesome TT talent often noticed in multi-tour winners. 3 years later he was destroying lemond by 4 minutes in luxembourg TT. my guess is something happened in between those two events.

 

[bridgeman]

GL was grinding and gutting it out on Luz Ardiden and Indurain just sat on, then rode away easily.. To me that was the moment the EPO era was born.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjj5137yKM

Thanks for this! Remember it well. Interesting to listen to Phil. Some things never change.

I always thought thought it was an unusual match to have Sam Posey there as well. Total badass auto racer. He seemed to genuinely like cycling.

Indurain was pretty much a surprise that day, at least for me.

 

[ultimobici]

Put Chambery at 3000 metres and the circuits would be very similar.
Duitama worlds wins for toughness overall.

Fair point, hadn't given it enough weight.

 

[ChrisE]

Yep, your right

Taken from the LeMond thread, dont know how to cross quote from other threads

Chris E on the subject of EPO being more effective than steroids:

''do you have a link from a controlled experiment from somebody on a detailed roid program vs one on EPO? If not, then it is all conjecture, used to suit your argument about whether or not a clean GL could have beaten these other riders on roids and whatnot in the 80's. It keeps with your narrative, because GL and LA are enemies thus GL can never be questioned about whether he could beat doped riders in the 80's''

So its all conjecture that EPO is more effective than steroids, of course you never said that, right or its out of context fact is you posted it.

I actually agree with you about Indurain, its just funny how you accuse others of believing things to follow a narative when its quite clear that is more in line with what you do here.

Here is what you posted earlier:

I am laughing so much at Chris E in this thread, kinda defending Indurain due to having results pre EPO but then in the LeMond thread demanding proof that EPO was more effective than steroids. LOL. Agenda much

To meet you head on, again, there has been no testing done in comparison. The modern doping regimen is comprised of several different PED's as you know. EPO pushed the bar further I admit, but how much in the cummulative sense? If EPO came before roids would we be talking about this backwards? I dunno. Do you?

Did it make Indurain something he wasn't? Am I saying he was clean prior to EPO? No, I am not saying that. I am unclear on your point. He was on something IMO but when doid he start the last step ie EPO, and is that relevant to his results?

The context of my posts about Indurain are about whether he could win on a level playing field vs the EPO donkey/racehorse analogy used by some (not me)....whether he was a natural talent or came out of the blue. I think those with natural talent are the best regardless of drugs on a level playing field. Others may not think that but that is OK.

Indurain had results both before and after the introduction of EPO, and potentially maybe he didn't get on it until after he won the tour. I admit he had to get on it when others did. How many others were on it when he won in 91? Who knows. There are some interesting posts in this thread that is leading me to back off of that somewhat. Sorry, I have no agenda here other than what I think.

 

[D-Queued]

Indurain is my hero.

He has three things that make it impossible for him to have doped:

1. He is my hero
2. He never tested positive
3. He isn't an a-hole

#3 clinches it.

Dave.

 

[ergmonkey]

Indurain is my hero.

He has three things that make it impossible for him to have doped:

1. He is my hero
2. He never tested positive
3. He isn't an a-hole

#3 clinches it.

Dave.

Ditto, Ivan Basso.

Ditto, Alejandro Valverde.

Ditto, Jan Ullrich (I don't count ecstasy as a PED positive).

 

[ergmonkey]

Oh, dear, almost forgot my biggest hero of them all: Bjarne Riis.

Never positive; always positively badass.

 

[D-Queued]

Ditto, Ivan Basso.

Ditto, Alejandro Valverde.

Ditto, Jan Ullrich (I don't count ecstasy as a PED positive).

I piti poor Valv. Not.

Let's agree to disagree on anyone that was that high profile with OP... and kept racing...

Dave.

 

[blutto]

thevenet won the tour at the age of 27.

he finished 4th in his second tour at the age of 23 and was 2nd at the age of 25.

he won mountain stages in his first tours as well at a young age.

all during merckx's era.

as for indurain -- on epo without a doubt -- hard to know exactly when. as for his vo2 scores were they done with or without epo. hard to know.

one thing is for sure. he was 17th 1.39 minutes on lemond in the versailles TT of 1989 when he was 24 -- not exactly the early natural awesome TT talent often noticed in multi-tour winners. 3 years later he was destroying lemond by 4 minutes in luxembourg TT. my guess is something happened in between those two events.

...the raw numbers you posted for that 89 TT don't take into account the aerodynamic advantage LeMond enjoyed thru the use of aerobars...once that is factored in the difference is closer to 30 sec....and while we are discussing that TT we may want to consider the fact that LeMond was never an overwhelming force in the TT discipline( he only beat Hinault once and barely and on a day when Hinault was suffering from the effects of a broken nose ) yet on that day, and after his accident, he smoked everyone...I find that curious don't you?...

...and LeMond's 92 performance?....wasn't he in the throes of mitochondrial disease?....I mean, his subpar performance in the TT was also mirrored by his subpar performance in the mountains was it not?...

Cheers

blutto

 

[blutto]

Just for some perspective:

I am married to a Colombian whose natural weight is 48kg. We went there the year we were married after she had been down at sea level for about 10 months. At the time i weighed 87kg. When we arrived, I had no altidue effects whatsoever and in fact felt I was able to run faster than normal without breathing harder - whereas she suffered and had to sit down a lot.

This is NOT an argument one way or the other about whether Indurain et al were clean or dirty. I am just trying to point out that weird things happen and they are not directly linearly interpretable - particularly with such little data.

As the saying goes: "If a straight line fit is required, obtain only 2 data points"

...at first blush your statement about data and straight lines seems really smart but do yourself a favour and never use that rationale if you ever do any serious research that has real meaning...an n of 2 will get you laughed out of the building ( and rightfully so )...

Cheers

blutto

 

[blutto]

thevenet won the tour at the age of 27.

he finished 4th in his second tour at the age of 23 and was 2nd at the age of 25.

he won mountain stages in his first tours as well at a young age.

all during merckx's era.

as for indurain -- on epo without a doubt -- hard to know exactly when. as for his vo2 scores were they done with or without epo. hard to know.

one thing is for sure. he was 17th 1.39 minutes on lemond in the versailles TT of 1989 when he was 24 -- not exactly the early natural awesome TT talent often noticed in multi-tour winners. 3 years later he was destroying lemond by 4 minutes in luxembourg TT. my guess is something happened in between those two events.

...here are the results of the uphill TT in the 89 Tour...with the advantage of aerobars minimized it could be concluded that it shows a clearer picture of time-trialing potential...


Stage 15: Gap - Orcieres Merlette 39 km individual time trial
1. Steven Rooks: 1hr 10min 42sec
2. Marino Lejaretta @ 24sec
3. Miguel Indurain @ 43sec
4. Pedro Delgado @ 49sec
5. Greg LeMond @ 57sec
6. Sean Kelly @ 1min 6sec
7. Raul Alcala @ 1min 10sec
8. Gert-Jan Theunisse @ 1min 12sed
9. Laurent Biondi @ 1min 37sec
10. Laurent Fignon @ 1min 44sec

Cheers

blutto

 

[Futuroscope]

did indurain dope? of course. as did (and do) most other professional cyclists. you don't win big races without drug use.

some get away with more than others (for various reasons), and the individual response to the different drugs will also vary. it's far from certain that the best natural talent wins when everyone is using drugs.

 

[VeloCity]

one thing is for sure. he was 17th 1.39 minutes on lemond in the versailles TT of 1989 when he was 24 -- not exactly the early natural awesome TT talent often noticed in multi-tour winners. 3 years later he was destroying lemond by 4 minutes in luxembourg TT. my guess is something happened in between those two events.

Well have to put that into context though - Indurain was riding primarily in support of Delgado at the '89 Tour, so unlikely that he felt the need to go flat out in the final TT, on the very last day of the Tour.

I have to disagree about one thing with Indurain - if you look at his results from the mid-80s onward to when he first won the Tour in '91, he was improving as a GC rider every year. There was definitely an upward trend for Indurain. Was he doping? Almost certainly. But I think the natural GC talent was there regardless. It's not like Riis (or Armstrong for that matter), where there was no previous sign of being a GC rider and then suddenly making the jump to Tour contender.

I think Indurain also benefited from a relative "lull" in the depth of his competition - the field in the early to mid '90s (Bugno, Chiappucci, Rominger, etc) weren't exactly the talent of the '80s (Fignon, Lemond, Delgado, Roche, Hinault).

 

[Lajeretta4Ever]

...here are the results of the uphill TT in the 89 Tour...with the advantage of aerobars minimized it could be concluded that it shows a clearer picture of time-trialing potential...


Stage 15: Gap - Orcieres Merlette 39 km individual time trial
1. Steven Rooks: 1hr 10min 42sec
2. Marino Lejaretta @ 24sec
3. Miguel Indurain @ 43sec
4. Pedro Delgado @ 49sec
5. Greg LeMond @ 57sec
6. Sean Kelly @ 1min 6sec
7. Raul Alcala @ 1min 10sec
8. Gert-Jan Theunisse @ 1min 12sed
9. Laurent Biondi @ 1min 37sec
10. Laurent Fignon @ 1min 44sec

Cheers

blutto

Marino Lajaretta, my hero!
Talk about a big time juicer on that list, Gert-Jan was everybody's daddy on that list!

 

[DirtyWorks]

... Lemond said grand tour GC guys show it earlier on, like Lemond, Roche, Fignon did...Indurain was 5 years a non climber and then boom

+1. A rider off the dope tends to do well in specific areas, consistently, throughout their career. Not every race is a win, but like Lemond, an actor at the sharp end of every race that comports to their skills.

With doping, all of those observations are gone. Just gone. The fact that it is gone is a clue to who is doping.

 

[ergmonkey]

I piti poor Valv. Not.

Let's agree to disagree on anyone that was that high profile with OP... and kept racing...

Dave.

In reality, we're in agreement. Valverde has never really suited my tastes in riders. Even when he was first breaking through big time with Kelme. After a while, his Puerto defense definitely looked silly.

I just figured I would throw him in there: 1) to get a rise out of a few people; and 2) because at least a lot of Spanish-speaking pros and fans seem to really, really like Valverde on a personal level, so I figure maybe he's got some admirable personal qualities that I'm just not able to enjoy.

 

[andy1234]

+1. A rider off the dope tends to do well in specific areas, consistently, throughout their career. Not every race is a win, but like Lemond, an actor at the sharp end of every race that comports to their skills.

With doping, all of those observations are gone. Just gone. The fact that it is gone is a clue to who is doping.

Indurain was a winner in both TTs and Climbs from the beginning, and consistently, throughout his career.

the Pau-Cauterets stage that he won in the 1989 tour, finished up Le Cambasque. A stage that has been won by Richard Virenque and Michael Rasmussen. He dominated that stage - pre EPO.

In the Mountain TT, Indurain finished ahead of LeMond, Fignon and Delgado,and no-one was soft pedalling that day.

Im not sure what more a rider needs as far as tour credentials.

 

[Exroadman24902]

Indurain was a winner in both TTs and Climbs from the beginning, and consistently, throughout his career.

the Pau-Cauterets stage that he won in the 1989 tour, finished up Le Cambasque. A stage that has been won by Richard Virenque and Michael Rasmussen. He dominated that stage - pre EPO.

In the Mountain TT, Indurain finished ahead of LeMond, Fignon and Delgado,and no-one was soft pedalling that day.

Im not sure what more a rider needs as far as tour credentials.

Indurain won that stage in the pyrenees 1989 in a soft move..he was not considered a GC threat... that's why he was allowed it. Indurain was good without EPO but nowhere nears as good as he wants us to believe he was. There were not huge signs in 89 that he would dominate by 1992. indurain was too heavy to achieve what he did IMO unless he got help. We know he claimed asthma..IMO he did the works..and deserves to go down with big tex!

 

[andy1234]

Indurain won that stage in the pyrenees 1989 in a soft move..he was not considered a GC threat... that's why he was allowed it. Indurain was good without EPO but nowhere nears as good as he wants us to believe he was. There were not huge signs in 89 that he would dominate by 1992. indurain was too heavy to achieve what he did IMO unless he got help. We know he claimed asthma..IMO he did the works..and deserves to go down with big tex!

You seem to have ignored that TT result....

 

[Polish]

Indurain won that stage in the pyrenees 1989 in a soft move..he was not considered a GC threat... that's why he was allowed it. Indurain was good without EPO but nowhere nears as good as he wants us to believe he was. There were not huge signs in 89 that he would dominate by 1992. indurain was too heavy to achieve what he did IMO unless he got help. We know he claimed asthma..IMO he did the works..and deserves to go down with big tex!

Big Mig was a BEAST in the 89 and 90 TdF's.
But he was a Super Loyal Worker Bee for Delgado.
Watch those editions again.
Monster domestique.
Stronger than Delgado.

If Big Mig were the Team Leader instead of Delgado,
he would have 7 tour wins instead of 5.

Watch those editions again.
Please, if you are going to try to re-write history - at least do it correctly

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...the raw numbers you posted for that 89 TT don't take into account the aerodynamic advantage LeMond enjoyed thru the use of aerobars...once that is factored in the difference is closer to 30 sec....and while we are discussing that TT we may want to consider the fact that LeMond was never an overwhelming force in the TT discipline( he only beat Hinault once and barely and on a day when Hinault was suffering from the effects of a broken nose ) yet on that day, and after his accident, he smoked everyone...I find that curious don't you?...

...and LeMond's 92 performance?....wasn't he in the throes of mitochondrial disease?....I mean, his subpar performance in the TT was also mirrored by his subpar performance in the mountains was it not?...

Cheers

blutto

You're right - that is curious, how is it LeMond was second best to Hinault in the TT and then when Hinault retired he becomes first.

Its why I am suspicious of Cancellara too - look at his results against Hinault, he doesn't even appear on them, curious, right? And then wham 25 years later and he wins everything.

Shall you call WADA or will I?

...here are the results of the uphill TT in the 89 Tour...with the advantage of aerobars minimized it could be concluded that it shows a clearer picture of time-trialing potential...


Stage 15: Gap - Orcieres Merlette 39 km individual time trial
1. Steven Rooks: 1hr 10min 42sec
2. Marino Lejaretta @ 24sec
3. Miguel Indurain @ 43sec
4. Pedro Delgado @ 49sec
5. Greg LeMond @ 57sec
6. Sean Kelly @ 1min 6sec
7. Raul Alcala @ 1min 10sec
8. Gert-Jan Theunisse @ 1min 12sed
9. Laurent Biondi @ 1min 37sec
10. Laurent Fignon @ 1min 44sec

Cheers

blutto

Ah, Steven Rooks, the Cancellara of his day.
With that 1h 10m for 39km (33kmh) I was always surprised he never attempted the Hour record.

 

[mastersracer]

I was at a number of Tours over that period - in 90 Indurain could barely hold Lemond's wheel up Luz Ardiden. In 91 Lemond arrived in good form (he won the yellow jersey on stage 1, lost it, then regained it for 4 stages midway through). By that point, Lemond looked like he could no longer recover like some other riders and exhausted himself chasing down increasinly aggressive attacks - and a lot of stupid ones like Chiappucci's. 91 is the start of the trend of an 8% increase in average Tour speed, by then EPO use was reported to be widespread. 91 was also the year of the PDM team Tour withdrawl (the team had been systematically taking EPO since 1990). Any dominant performance from 91 on is suspicious...

 

[blutto]

You're right - that is curious, how is it LeMond was second best to Hinault in the TT and then when Hinault retired he becomes first.

Its why I am suspicious of Cancellara too - look at his results against Hinault, he doesn't even appear on them, curious, right? And then wham 25 years later and he wins everything.

Shall you call WADA or will I?



Ah, Steven Rooks, the Cancellara of his day.
With that 1h 10m for 39km (33kmh) I was always surprised he never attempted the Hour record.

...when exactly was he first?...

Cheers

blutto