A thread on Indurain's doping

[Franklin]

"Indurain just popped out of nowhere. Nobody would have considered him capable of doing what he's doing when he turned pro seven years before [his first Tour win]."

I'm sorry, I love Greg, but Greg obviously didn't read cycling magazines and newspapers.

Big Mig was seen as a prodigy from the start. Articles and interviews all hinted at future GT wins. As it's ludicrous to suggest all these papers all over Europe were in cahoots... I'd say Greg was being a bit frustrated here.

Greg has a good reason to be angry, namely Epo. But saying Big Mig came out of nowhere is simply false.

 

[Franklin]

LOL. Never in my life I heard this excuse. Trying to make something up at the time like if he had eaten from the forbidden tree.

Nope, Dr. M. definitely remembered rightly: Bugno underwent "Mozart Therapy" to correct his hearing and thus his balance.

And yes, that's quite "funny" considering what was happening in cycling by that time. It ranks among the best euphemisms I ever heard in cycling

 

[hrotha]

Nope, Dr. M. definitely remembered rightly: Bugno underwent "Mozart Therapy" to correct his hearing and thus his balance.

And yes, that's quite "funny" considering what was happening in cycling by that time. It ranks among the best euphemisms I ever heard in cycling

The funny thing is, that was so early in the history of the EPO era some interpret it as a sign that Bugno was the real deal, not a particularly early user or good responder, and the reason he fell behind from 1993 onwards is that he refused to play along the arms race. Both interpretations are possible, but personally, in light of his 1990 Giro, I'm inclined to believe the EPO pioneer theory.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Don't forget that he won Paris Nice in 1989

 

[Bavarianrider]

Little of topic question.

Anybody knows why Indurain dind't like the Vuelta and never had a serious go there?

 

[andy1234]

when I said Indurain could barely hold Lemond's wheel on Luz Ardiden, I wasn't suggesting he pull, since obviously Delgado was behind. I meant he was getting gapped, was struggling not to get unhooked, and was on the edge of popping most of the way up. No doubt there was a lot of maturation as a stage racer, but there's reason to be suspicious of his awesomeness in terms of what took him to the next level as a Tour winner. Lemond also said this about him:

"Indurain just popped out of nowhere. Nobody would have considered him capable of doing what he's doing when he turned pro seven years before [his first Tour win]."

LeMond was a competitor, not a statistician. He wasn't, and isn't, the sage of all things cycling.
He has an opinion. Sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong.

Mig was a star in the making, LeMond was just too busy taking care of a few tour wins to see it.

 

[Magnus]

It's not like Riis (or Armstrong for that matter), where there was no previous sign of being a GC rider and then suddenly making the jump to Tour contender.

To me 5-14-3-1 is not suddenly making a jump to number 1.

 

[andy1234]

To me 5-14-3-1 is not suddenly making a jump to number 1.

Good point. Riis had a very consistent tour career.
Albeit with a slow start

 

[roundabout]

To me 5-14-3-1 is not suddenly making a jump to number 1.

Still don't see where he is wrong.

But it seems nitpicking and rewriting history has become the norm now on this forum.

 

[hrotha]

Anybody knows why Indurain dind't like the Vuelta and never had a serious go there?

Several factors. He made several serious goes - he was 7th in 1990, which was deemed a major disappointment as that was supposed to be a test to see if he could be a GT contender, and 2nd in 1991, which again was disappointing because he was beaten by a relative nobody like Mauri. But that was before he even won one Tour, of course. Afterwards, he preferred to ride the Giro as preparation for the Tour, in part because of his allergies, in part because for years he had to share the cake with Delgado, who was targeting the Vuelta (he retired in 1994; he was 3rd that year). In 1996 he gave it a go because his team forced him to, which is something he never forgave.

To me 5-14-3-1 is not suddenly making a jump to number 1.

That 5th was in 1993, right in the EPO era, when he was already 29 and rode for Ferretti. Prior to that year he had done nothing in the way of a GC.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Several factors. He made several serious goes - he was 7th in 1990, which was deemed a major disappointment as that was supposed to be a test to see if he could be a GT contender, and 2nd in 1991, which again was disappointing because he was beaten by a relative nobody like Mauri. But that was before he even won one Tour, of course. Afterwards, he preferred to ride the Giro as preparation for the Tour, in part because of his allergies, in part because for years he had to share the cake with Delgado, who was targeting the Vuelta (he retired in 1994; he was 3rd that year). In 1996 he gave it a go because his team forced him to, which is something he never forgave.

That 5th was in 1993, right in the EPO era, when he was already 29 and rode for Ferretti. Prior to that year he had done nothing in the way of a GC.

Thanks! Didn't know he was secon i 91

 

[Magnus]

That 5th was in 1993, right in the EPO era, when he was already 29 and rode for Ferretti. Prior to that year he had done nothing in the way of a GC.

That's true, but he was hardly a contender for victory in 93... Besides going in to the 93 season he lost 7 kg (and started doing epo of course.)

edit: An afaik the tour 93 was the first time he rode a gt not being domestique.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Well i think we can agree that Indurain certainly benifited from the Epo era. However, he was a very solid rider anyway and would have had some sucess with or without the Epo era.
He's no Tony Rominger who really was only a product of Epo and Dr. Ferrari

 

[pmcg76]

Well i think we can agree that Indurain certainly benifited from the Epo era. However, he was a very solid rider anyway and would have had some sucess with or without the Epo era.
He's no Tony Rominger who really was only a product of Epo and Dr. Ferrari

I would not be sure about slating Rominger like that, Rominger had almost as much success before he exploded. Rominger came late to cycling and only turned pro in 86. As early as 87 he was contending in the Giro into the final week where he cracked completely, I think he was 2nd overall until stage 16/17. He had won T-A(x2) Paris-Nice and Tour of Lombardy all before he started to perfrom at the Tour. In fact it could be said he was similar to Indurain in style of career. Allegedely he suffered badly from Hay fever which is what prevented him from competing at the GTs until he got it fixed in around 92

 

[Magnus]

Well i think we can agree that Indurain certainly benifited from the Epo era. However, he was a very solid rider anyway and would have had some sucess with or without the Epo era.
He's no Tony Rominger who really was only a product of Epo and Dr. Ferrari

To be fair to Tony he has some decent results in 87-89.

 

[Bavarianrider]

To be fair to Tony he has some decent results in 87-89.

Ah ok. Just very often people present Rominge ras the anti Greg Lemond. Like Lemond the saint who was killed by Epo and Rominger the devil who benifited of it. Maybe i should be more careful with this opinions.

 

[simoni]

That's true, but he was hardly a contender for victory in 93... Besides going in to the 93 season he lost 7 kg (and started doing epo of course.)

edit: An afaik the tour 93 was the first time he rode a gt not being domestique.

wrt Riis, ariostea was, of course, the forerunner to the "legendary" Gewiss team of 1994. There seems little doubt that he was indulging in 1993. I think he was going strongly in 1994 too - I saw 6 or 7 tour stages that year and remember him being up there on the mntn stages but think he had a big off day at some point that affected his overall result. He won a stage in '93 (ahead of sciandri from a small group sprint) and '94 (into Albi I think).

wrt Indurain, I really hope he wasn't as he was (and is) an idol of mine. I'd never heard the conconi link before - is that a definite? I think his progression was fairly reasonable and don't remember being surprised when he took yellow in '91 - he was clearly stronger than Delgado by then. However, given the attitude of the wider Banesto/Ille Baleares/Caisse d'Erpargne/Movistar set-up since (esp. wrt Valverde) its difficult to imagine he was doing it on bread and water.

wrt Rominger, you can usually read between the lines of what ex-pros say in interviews etc. I've no doubt that Rominger was on the sauce.

 

[pmcg76]

Ah ok. Just very often people present Rominge ras the anti Greg Lemond. Like Lemond the saint who was killed by Epo and Rominger the devil who benifited of it. Maybe i should be more careful with this opinions.

No you are correct in such that Rominger definitely benefited big-time from EPO and working with Ferrari. He went from being a good rider capable of winning one week races to suddenly being a top GT rider. Unless you believe that improvement was solely down to him getting his hay fever sorted.

However he did have results pre EPO as well, he wasnt a nobody like Riis or someone with no major stage race results like Lance. There are guys like Indurain, Rominger, Bugno hell even Chiappucci who had some decent results pre EPO, its just that they suddenly became big stars at the same time as the arrival as EPO.

 

[pmcg76]

wrt Riis, ariostea was, of course, the forerunner to the "legendary" Gewiss team of 1994. There seems little doubt that he was indulging in 1993. I think he was going strongly in 1994 too - I saw 6 or 7 tour stages that year and remember him being up there on the mntn stages but think he had a big off day at some point that affected his overall result. He won a stage in '93 (ahead of sciandri from a small group sprint) and '94 (into Albi I think).

wrt Indurain, I really hope he wasn't as he was (and is) an idol of mine. I'd never heard the conconi link before - is that a definite? I think his progression was fairly reasonable and don't remember being surprised when he took yellow in '91 - he was clearly stronger than Delgado by then. However, given the attitude of the wider Banesto/Ille Baleares/Caisse d'Erpargne/Movistar set-up since (esp. wrt Valverde) its difficult to imagine he was doing it on bread and water.

wrt Rominger, you can usually read between the lines of what ex-pros say in interviews etc. I've no doubt that Rominger was on the sauce.

I remember that stage where Riis beat Sciandri whose comments afterwards said it all really "Sheez, beaten by a guy like Riis". Wonder what he thought when Riis won the Tour!!! That was also the day when Motorola had 3 guys in the break and still lost out precipitating the Lance victory a few days later. If Motorola had won that day, then perhaps we would not have seen Lance gunning for a stage that year.

Yes, Indurain definitely worked with Conconi, it was public knowledge. Rominger was one of the first riders to benefit big time from working with Ferrari along with Argentin but he did have some results in the pre EPO era unlike Riis.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Meh, I prefer to leave guys like Indurain and Romi alone. I mean, unless there's some concrete doping evidence against them to discuss what's the point?

 

[hrotha]

Meh, I prefer to leave guys like Indurain and Romi alone. I mean, unless there's some concrete doping evidence against them to discuss what's the point?

The point is we're trying to reconstruct the timeline of EPO doping in the pro peloton as a way to understand what happened then and what's happening now. There's plenty concrete evidence on both Indurain and Rominger, depending on what your idea of concrete evidence is.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

The point is we're trying to reconstruct the timeline of EPO doping in the pro peloton as a way to understand what happened then and what's happening now. There's plenty concrete evidence on both Indurain and Rominger, depending on what your idea of concrete evidence is.

Understandable. then when was EPO available for cancer treatment therapy? Probably not long after that. For example from Wiki:

In the 1980s, Adamson, Joseph W. Eschbach, Joan C. Egrie, Michael R. Downing and Jeffrey K. Browne conducted a clinical trial at the Northwest Kidney Centers for a synthetic form of the hormone, Epogen produced by Amgen. The trial was successful, and the results were published in the New England Journal of Medicine in January 1987.

1991 was when LeMond claimed he started to notice a big increase in the speed of the peloton and especially of certain lesser riders. Etc.

 

[Magnus]

I remember that stage where Riis beat Sciandri whose comments afterwards said it all really "Sheez, beaten by a guy like Riis". Wonder what he thought when Riis won the Tour!!!

Well, maybe he shouldn't be that surprised considering that Riis beat Rolf Sørensen in a GdI stage as early as '89.

 

[mastersracer]

LeMond was a competitor, not a statistician. He wasn't, and isn't, the sage of all things cycling.
He has an opinion. Sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong.

Mig was a star in the making, LeMond was just too busy taking care of a few tour wins to see it.

Actually, Lemond was right on this one. Indurain is an outlier in terms of Tour champions of his time. Indurain was nowhere in the first 5 Tours he competed in. This was not the progression or pattern of any other recent Tour winner. To compare:

Hinault: won first Tour he competed in (won Vuelta same year)

Fignon: won first Tour he competed in - at age 22 (so much for being too young to do well)

Lemond: 3rd first Tour he competed in (while working for Fignon)

Delgado: first Tour finished 15th at age 23

Roche: first Tour finished 13th

Even Hampsten finished his first Tour in 4th while helping Lemond. Young age or working for a Tour winner didn't preclude someone with grand tour pedigree from doing well.

By comparison, Indurain was DNF on the first three tours he competed in, 97th in the 4th, and 47th in the 5th. Not the trajectory of a future 5-time winner according to the pattern of other winners of his era (of course he wasn't of their era, but that's the point).

 

[Franklin]

Actually, Lemond was right on this one.

Are you deliberately obtuse?

GL: noone saw Big Mig coming.

Newspapers+Articles since 1985 The young Spaniard, domestique of Pedro Delgado will one day take over the crown.

Do we have to spell it out? Pundits and experts did see a GT winner in Miguel Indurain since the start. It wasn't a secret... he was hyped for years. Greg's comment is therefore undeniably false. Miguel actually did what was expected, he took over the crown.

I'm not sure how much BS about Miguel will be kept on posting. Miguel was certainly not coming out of nowhere and he was definitely seen as a contender to be prior to anyone knew about EPO. I'm sure he did use Epo, but we don't need any falsification of history to come to that conclusion.

I love Greg, great rider, but that comment of his is ludicrous.

And before you retort: Indurain's slow buildup might be atypical... but that's not what Greg said. Also, keep in mind that Indurain was openly brought slowly. All during the end of the eighties Echevarri and Miguel themselves talked about their slow strategy in the same articles .

Once again, this was all pre-epo, so conspiracy seems to be really farfetched. Unless we now suggest Miguel started in 1985 and was a super secret test subject of Eprex...